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Old 07-14-2003, 07:49 PM   #16
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Re: Re: i am not an american

Quote:
Originally posted by pub crawler


The U.S. is largely a conservative nation,
That is untrue. The majority of US citizens are moderates. That is a myth the neocons would like people to believe.

Gore did win the popular vote and the Rep. seats gained in 2002 was in response to 9/11.
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Old 07-14-2003, 08:40 PM   #17
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Re: st. paul - the more literate twin.

Anitram summed up what I was thinking much more eloquently.

Quote:
Originally posted by Lilly
[B]there's a lot of things i want to say in this thread.

1. sula, kobe, mrs. edge: respectfully, it was a different climate here in the states relative to whatever it was in different borders. the second we declared war, the united states was isolated from its friends and neighbors (rightfully so - we really were alone). so while i respect your speculations on what americans may or may not have been feeling or not feeling at that time, and it's nice to see your viewpoints, but just remember it was a lot different here than anywhere else.
And that's exactly why we want you to explain this American psyche to us. I don't know Lilly...maybe I am just collosally stupid, but I still don't quite get what climate and "being alone" have to do with whether you stand behind someone/something you don't agree with (not you personally, but "a person")? I am not trying to be argumentative, I just honestly don't get it.

I just think that if my President were doing something (regardless of whether it is war or whatever) that neither I, nor the majority of the world agreed with, I would want to disassociate myself from it that much more. I would not go through the motions of standing behind something that is the opposite of what I believe.

This "stand behind the Prez" thing has shown itself in other areas with nothing to do with war. In another forum just a few weeks ago I was having a conversation with U2Fan101 about arts funding. He said "Don't get me wrong, as an American I stand behind whoever is the president 100 percent, but that stupid idiot cut back something that is important to me and millions of other Americans."

There it is AGAIN! I don't understand this mentality!!!
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Old 07-14-2003, 09:44 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mrs. Edge
Anitram summed up what I was thinking much more eloquently.



And that's exactly why we want you to explain this American psyche to us. I don't know Lilly...maybe I am just collosally stupid, but I still don't quite get what climate and "being alone" have to do with whether you stand behind someone/something you don't agree with (not you personally, but "a person")? I am not trying to be argumentative, I just honestly don't get it.

I just think that if my President were doing something (regardless of whether it is war or whatever) that neither I, nor the majority of the world agreed with, I would want to disassociate myself from it that much more. I would not go through the motions of standing behind something that is the opposite of what I believe.

This "stand behind the Prez" thing has shown itself in other areas with nothing to do with war. In another forum just a few weeks ago I was having a conversation with U2Fan101 about arts funding. He said "Don't get me wrong, as an American I stand behind whoever is the president 100 percent, but that stupid idiot cut back something that is important to me and millions of other Americans."

There it is AGAIN! I don't understand this mentality!!!

mrs. edge - i hope you're not upset with me. but let me explain the whole "being alone" thing. i'm saying that that's probably why you (you being those who aren't americans) don't understand our psyche. like i don't understand british psyche cos i'm not in britain. there are a lot of nuances that come along with being immersed in a culture that someone even as close as being in toronto wouldn't understand. even if you're watching our news it may still be foreign, ya know? it's like if you came down to the twin cities and i said "hey, yah, i'll meet you up in highland for dinner." you don't know where highland is, and it isn't on a map, and dinner here can also mean lunch. so if i'm in highland at noon and you call me at 6 to say "lilian!!! where the hell is highland???" then we clearly have misunderstandings due to culture differences.

it's a tear - does one support the country during wartime? or does one stick to its beliefs? or does one support the country but still stick to believing the war is wrong?

that's kinda also where "support our troops" comes in. becuase it's a way to "support" the country without supporting the war. i think a lot of americans had the rug pulled from underneath them when the war was declared. like...what do you do to protest something that is already irrecovable? which may be where other countries saw that we just gave up questioning the war.


but just to let you know, we didn't stop questioning. the voices were few and quiet, but the questions were still being asked.


i still don't understand what kobe is getting at (damn cultural differences ), but i hope i'm kinda answering it

did i get at what you were asking about mrs. edge?


and anitram - in the history section of my first post is kind of an explanation to why people (usually old men) say that one has to support their president no matter what. it's an old belief and really baby boomers are changing that imprint. i would suggest that with shows like crossfire it is opinion based, and even though it may be aired, it's not necessarily how the majority of americans feel (of course i'm just one american in one section of the country, it may be different down south or out east).

again - if that wasn't answering your question let me know, cos i'm interested in this.
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Old 07-14-2003, 10:37 PM   #19
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i never support Pres Bush on anything and i am american.
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Old 07-15-2003, 02:41 AM   #20
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i'm not the biggest fan of bush ever, but i wouldn't say i NEVER support bush on anything.


i think that in these political days you're bound to agree with one part of the presidential platform, whether it be the war or his policy for aid in africa (some is better than none).
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Old 07-15-2003, 07:30 AM   #21
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Re: i am not an american

Quote:
Originally posted by kobayashi
but i am curious to ask americans the following...why is it that the president must be supported at all costs? from where does that rationale come from? why, when the war began, did all questioning of the war need to cease?

to me this would appear to clash with much of what is fundamental to america.
That is a good question. I'm really curious about it, too.

Our First Amendment is there for a reason. It allows us to be able to express our opinions on various issues. Our founding fathers were probably rolling in their graves at times during the whole thing of whether or not we should be allowed to criticize our president.

I protested the war, but I definitely got some comments about how I should "leave" if I don't like what our government's doing or, my favorite, "These soldiers fought for your right to say what you're saying, so quit complaining and support our country!" (can we say "contradiction"?).

I think what some people in the country need to understand is this: I do love this country. Very much.

Therefore, if I feel our president is doing something that, in my eyes, brings down our country, allows other countries to hate us, etc., you'd better believe I will speak up and be against what our president is doing. I love our country so much that I refuse to allow it to be looked at as a horrible country that does nothing more than bully others around, and if our government in some way, shape, or form, is allowing that image to be put out, then I'm gonna protest the government's actions.

And I think that's the case with a lot of dissenters in this country.

Not to mention, if we blindly supported our government in everything they said and did, simply because he was the president and we absolutely must support him and not dare question him, we'd be living in a dictatorship. Not a democracy.

Quote:
Originally posted by Lilly
i think that complete complaceny IS apathy, just going along with what the president says solely because he is the president is apathetic and stupid, you can't deny that.

going along with the president because you have reviewed his policies and agree with his platform is different from the above case. it clearly isn't complacency and isn't agreement with the president solely because he is the president, it's an active afiliation with the president/administration.
Exactly.

Besides, I have respect for the position of president. I just don't always like who holds that position. Bush has done very little in my eyes to make me hold much respect for him.

That's my opinion, though. Some people would disagree, and that's fine.

Not to mention, some of the same people in this country that were upset with those of us who criticized Bush were critcizing Clinton mercilessly when he was president, so that's another thing that bugs me-the sheer hypocrisy of some people.

Angela
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Old 07-15-2003, 10:17 AM   #22
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i was absolutely hammered when i wrote this.

Quote:
Originally posted by kobayashi
why is it that the president must be supported at all costs? from where does that rationale come from? why, when the war began, did all questioning of the war need to cease?
no i wasnt. but i did make a generalization that i shouldnt have. a more accurate query, and more akin to what i was actually wondering, is whether or not you agree there is a cultural climate within the U.S. of backing the President through thick and thin? and if so, why? by that i dont mean all americans (thus eliciting an 'im american and i dont' response) i just mean...a trend of sorts.

this does not stem from any specific incident or quote from any one person. it is, as i said, something i feel is present in the ideological climate (now we are getting heady) of the U.S. at present and i would think to an american, it is a troubling development.

it seems he is given a pass of sorts on his misgivings because he has been charged with leading the war on terrorism. im not much for history but did cold war era presidents recieve the same...benefit? (i dont want to use that word but cant think of another)

you are right lilly. the thoughts of myself, anitram and mrs. edge certainly point toward a candian/american divide on this and perhaps it is only our perception. it is the response of other americans which really intrigues me here.
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Old 07-15-2003, 11:22 AM   #23
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Sting, education has nothing to do with it.
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Old 07-15-2003, 11:43 AM   #24
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I agree with you Moonlit_Angel. If the president is doing something that's not good for the country I love, then I'm going to be mad. I'm going to protest. This stuff about anti-war protesters being "against the troops" or whatever is nonsense. We weren't criticizing the troops. We were criticizing the big shots in Washington. And if we can't criticize them then we do live in a dictatorship and not a democracy. As far as I'm concerned my government is a democracy, dammmit.
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Old 07-15-2003, 11:48 AM   #25
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Sting, I understand that people who support Bush are not "blind supporters". Some people have analyzed everything, and thought really hard, and have decided that he's doing the right thing. The thing is not everyone feels this way. I've read stuff and tried to keep an open mind about Bush, the war, etc, etc. I don't *hate* Bush. I simply don't agree with his agenda. That's not the same thing. I don't think he's a or whatever.
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Old 07-15-2003, 01:30 PM   #26
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verte76, I consider you to be one of the most open people on the forum.
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Old 07-15-2003, 02:36 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by kobayashi
it seems he is given a pass of sorts on his misgivings because he has been charged with leading the war on terrorism. im not much for history but did cold war era presidents recieve the same...benefit? (i dont want to use that word but cant think of another)

kobe - i love that your posts in here always give me an excuse to talk history


the climate during the cold war was a lot different than it is now. first off there was a lot more blind support for the president. secondly, and more importantly, during the cold war, the majority of americans hated the "enemy" (in quotes because communists were just continually misrepresented in order to create a hate to manipulate it so the president had more leway when he made horriffic decisions).

in the more heated years of the cold war (mid50s to early 60s) it wasn't "proper" to question the president. while there are articles and essays posing questions, they were poorly circulated and the writer was usually branded a communist. later the cold war was shoved out of the way because the vietnam war was the center of attention.


by the time it was resurfacing as a concern (reagan era) the ussr was crumbling on its own. aaaaand in the "me me me" climate of the 80s people really didn't care about the cold war (see incorporation of "star wars").

these years also marked a general lack of information. unlike now, people in the world didn't have instant access to others (americans wouldn't be talking to people from austria regularly) to get that other point of view.

i think i rambled into different directions sorry...i'm a history loser
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Old 07-15-2003, 04:07 PM   #28
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Lilly,

The Vietnam War was apart of the Cold War. There is this belief that there was somehow a thaw in the Cold War in the late 70s which is totally false. Some of the Soviets highest defense spending was during the late 1970s. The media may not of noticed, but any one in the military or intelligence services new it all to well. The nightmare many planners had then was how to defend Western Europe from Warsaw Pact without having to resort to the use of Nuclear Weapons. The Reagan administration strengthened the US military and gave NATO the ability to defend itself from a Warsaw Pact conventional invasion without having to need to resort to the use of Nuclear Weapons. It also provided the US military with a large number of new high tech weapons, most of which are still being used in service today.

In the Soviet Union itself, massive defense spending without any let up was ruining the Soviet economy. The Soviets had planned to stabilize or cut back spending in the 1980s, but the Reagan defense build up, greatly accelerated Soviet Defense spending which continued to increase every year until the end of 1988. 1989 was actually the first year in decades that Soviet Defense spending was less than the prior year. But it was to little to late to save the Soviet Union, which disolved on Christmas Day, 1991. The Truman Administrations policy of containment, followed by all future US presidents, had worked, although there were many difficult times, concerns and worry's along the way.

As for the general population in the USA, I remember growing up with every movie incorperating some time of Nuclear War theme in the early 1980s. The Martian Chronicles, The Day After, Red Dawn, 2010, even the Terminator just to name a few. Movies into the early 1990s continued to play off of the Cold War. So I'd say it was still very much a part of culture in the 1980s, and it was a big shock when the Berlin Wall came down and the Warsaw Pact and Soviet Union all of sudden came apart in the space of 2 years. I remember my highschool dean saying more had happened in those 2 years than in the 20 years prior.
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Old 07-15-2003, 06:40 PM   #29
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I'm reminded of 'Gone With the Wind', the chapter where Mrs. Meade (remember the auction at the dance?) is put in the position of wanting to support her husband in an action of which she heartily disapproves. I think there are many Americans who feel the same way about our country right now.
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Old 07-15-2003, 07:06 PM   #30
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Good debate on this one.

The main thing I think you are referring to kobe is this attack on dissenters i.e. the Dixie Chicks blowup for saying they disapproved of the president.

If you lived in Europe during WWII, would you support Churchill or deGaulle? most likely, yes. You rally around the leader of your country in a time of war. Americans did the same thing when we were attacked on 9/11. However, the administration has done an amazing spin job on making americans believe Iraq influenced 9/11 [in one poll, 46% of Americans said most of the 9/11 hijackers were Iraqi, none were]. Essentially, most [not ALL] Americans support Bush because they see the war in Iraq as an extension to the war on terrorism [I don't believe it is].

Anyways, imagine if your country was attacked and one day 3000 people died. You're going to support the president because you're going to believe that he knows what he is doing and he is your leader. That's what happened here and I believe that is what you are referring to.

With recent information, its becoming more and more obvious that Bush lied to us about Iraq, so you may see the tide changing.

In the end though, people here see supporting the president as the same thing as being a patriotic American. I get as misty eyed as the next person when I hear Lee Greenwood's "God Bless the USA" but that's different than supporting Bush.
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