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Old 02-24-2004, 08:24 PM   #16
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That's exactly right, Martha, and your choice of "equivocate" is perfect.


NBC--true. As part of the Union, I educated children.

Dread--you're setting up a strawman. The issue is this idiot member of the Bush admin's inflammaotry, almost unforgiveable choice of words.

But since you mentioned it: Considering that I was not paid enough to make my own rent and was expected to put in overtime FOR FREE and ALSO expected to absorb 2-3 months of unemployment a year, your reaction, being wary of All Those Bad Teachers, amazes and saddens and angers me. Are there bad employees in any place? Duh! This overlooks the vast majority of people who break their back for learning and for kids, and do so in a society that tells us we're so valuable that we get to subsidize public education out of our own pockets, and that we're such professionals that we can't even assess our own students. One of the best teachers I know of, whose kids adored him and worked their asses off for him, left after 10 years. Why? He and his wife wanted a baby. He couldn't afford to continue teaching and have a child. THAT's the main reason why there are bad teachers, Dread. Unless you're one of those rare Saints with a Calling, why the hell would anyone want such a job? You pay for and design a system for mediocrity, that's what you'll get.

That felt good. Rant over.

SD
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Old 02-24-2004, 08:44 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sherry Darling
Are there bad employees in any place? Duh!
Interesting, so my disliking that the union protects people who ARE not doing their job leads you to believe that I do not respect teachers who do why? Are you DENYING that the UNION protects dead wood?

I would figure that ANY teacher who does a decent job would stand with me on this. There are teachers who are wastes of space and there is a reason that students coming from these classroom are LOSING OUT. 10 of twenty students coming into my class made less than a years growth in reading the year before. Five of them made half a year or less. Two made no growth at all.

We test every year and quarterly to make certain we are making progress. Now, tell me, why should I be happy when my four colleagues at my grade level averaged 3+ years of growth last year with our students. Only one kid from my room made less than a years growth. Why shouldn't I expect the kids coming into my classroom to have made the same? Please note, I am not saying all kids are on grade level, but it should be expected to get a years worth of growth in a year.
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Old 02-24-2004, 08:58 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sherry Darling
This overlooks the vast majority of people who break their back for learning and for kids, and do so in a society that tells us we're so valuable that we get to subsidize public education out of our own pockets,
Did you miss my other posting?

Quote:
Originally posted by Sherry Darling
and that we're such professionals that we can't even assess our own students.
Nope, I do not believe we can. I would argue that since MA adopted the MCAS test, SAT scores have improved. Outside accountability is important. The system they set up here is screwed. But the results across the board from grade to grade are that there has been a dramatic improvement in writing, reading and math. Clearly if people, teachers, are finding that something has changed....What was it? being held accountable.

[Q]One of the best teachers I know of, whose kids adored him and worked their asses off for him, left after 10 years. Why? He and his wife wanted a baby. He couldn't afford to continue teaching and have a child. THAT's the main reason why there are bad teachers, Dread. [/Q]

That is his experience. Here in Massachusetts, they offered nice signing bonuses to people to come from business into teaching. They did their minimum three years, got their bonus money and screwed. yes, working on a teachers salary is DIFFICULT. But, people know what they are getting into when the signed up. Again, new teachers here in MA must get their Masters in five years or they lose their certificate. Gone.

I do not know why he had to leave. I know it is diffifcult. I have two kids. My wife teaches. We live in a house that allows us to live comfortable. People say it is a "starter home". I laugh at that. It is our permanent home. Not because I would not like a larger home, but because we both like teaching and wanted children and wanted to provide opportunities for our kids. That is what life is, making choices.

Anyone who goes into this business, shouldn't be doing it for the money. And TAXPAYERS deserve to get results for the dollars that they are putting out of their pockets.



[Q]Unless you're one of those rare Saints with a Calling, why the hell would anyone want such a job? You pay for and design a system for mediocrity, that's what you'll get.

That felt good. Rant over. [/Q]

Good...

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Old 02-24-2004, 09:20 PM   #19
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I am not saying teachers do not deserve a decent wage. I have been working every summer but one to help make ends meet over the past eight years. I still have more time with my family than any other father that I know. That to me is worth its weight in gold.
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Old 02-24-2004, 09:41 PM   #20
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How are teachers' salaries in the USA?

My mother was a teacher for a long time (abroad and in Canada) before she became an administrator and was always able to make a very, very comfortable living. Although in her case, she was "overqualified" because of her graduate degrees, but I generally don't hear these sorts of financial complaints out of teachers in Canada as much. No, they're not loaded, but I have never heard anybody quitting so that they could afford having kids. That's just unthinkable to me.
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Old 02-24-2004, 10:02 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sherry Darling
Considering that I was not paid enough to make my own rent and was expected to put in overtime FOR FREE and ALSO expected to absorb 2-3 months of unemployment a year, your reaction, being wary of All Those Bad Teachers, amazes and saddens and angers me.
This is what ANGERS me...LOL

There is NO overtime because you are SALARY. SALARY paid for entire year of which you work 180-185 DAYS.

Barely 1/2 a years work.

Think about it.....I have parents working two f-ing jobs to make ends meet. I work 180 days a year and get paid almost $50,000. Keep in mind I have been at this now for nine years.

Yes, I put my time in schooling to get here. Seven years of COLLEGE.

Now part of the PROBLEM is the fact that many teachers do not VIEW this job as a FULL time JOB. It is a job to suppliment their husbands Very FINE income. There is part of the problem with education.

A second problem, is that now having gone through two years of contract negotions on two fronts, through my wife's school and my own...I can say this. The OLDER members of the UNION could give a RATS ass about the younger memebers. In both schools, the OLDER MEMBERS managed to get themselves LARGER RAISES than the younger teachers starting out. That is the TRUTH. Master's + 45 credits added in. Great...a $5000 dollar raise. I have been begging for the Union to Fight for more COURSE REIMBURSEMENT for the younger teachers who have to get their Master's in FIVE years.

My wife was being DISCRIMINATED against because she was pregnant along with five other pregnant teachers. We were preparing a lawsuit. She was told she could not come to school in SEPT because she was due to deliver the second week of school and that she HAD to use her sick time. Ordered to not come to school? What is up with that????? The UNION did nothing. They ran her maternity leave different two different times. One time did not count vacation and weekend days against her. The second child they did. Again the UNION did nothing. She was told that they (the older teachers) had made their sacrafices when they had kids years ago.

They raised my F-ing DUES when I just had a kid and was putting myself through the Masters program, paying for my house, paying for my car {piece of crap 1984 Buik Regal) to "DEFEND us AGAINST the state testing and slander against us. Where did the money go? It went into ADS for AL GORE. NOT to defend us or promote the decent job that teachers are doing. MY $$$$ went ot a candidate that I do not support.

A UNION is about defending rights. I know, because I worked in the HOTEL industry. I am familiar with UNIONS. The Teachers Unions that I have experienced HAVE NOT worked for its members.

[CUT Because my wife fears I will be in trouble by venting this much info about bad teachers protected by the union. I assured her I would be fine, but you never know.]

Why are they there...they are PROTECTED.

There my rant is OVER...HEHE....My mother in-law moves in tomorrow. Maybe I will feel better then. PEACE.
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Old 02-24-2004, 10:55 PM   #22
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Matt, your union is crap.
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Old 02-24-2004, 10:58 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
Again, new teachers here in MA must get their Masters in five years or they lose their certificate. Gone.

And after that, they make a whopping 50 grand? No wonder no one takes us seriously. Try that bullshit in the private sector. Five years and a required Master's?

Could that appallingly low pay scale have anything to do with the quality of the teachers you have to work with? Why would many people stay, take the crap we take, get called names by Federal officials, and then make nothing? They could easily work much less, be appreciated, and not deal with random Federal regulations.
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Old 02-24-2004, 11:01 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by martha
Matt, your union is crap.
Ya think...LOL

I am sure there are good ones..... It really depends on the people.

When I am older, my kids are gone to do bigger and better things, and my wife has grown tired of me chasing her around the house....I plan on getting more involved.
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Old 02-24-2004, 11:13 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by martha


And after that, they make a whopping 50 grand? No wonder no one takes us seriously. Try that bullshit in the private sector. Five years and a required Master's?

Could that appallingly low pay scale have anything to do with the quality of the teachers you have to work with? Why would many people stay, take the crap we take, get called names by Federal officials, and then make nothing? They could easily work much less, be appreciated, and not deal with random Federal regulations.
I work in a pretty damn good school overall. There are "bad" employees no matter where you go. We are the jewel of the school system. House prices in my area of town are much higher because of the school. I am three steps away from maxing out on the step scale though.

You are not required to have a Masters? Did your "PERMANENT" certificate get taken from you with Education reform so you have to recertify every five years? Paying $125 + 50 Extra for additional certificates?

There really are good teachers in my building...however....there are 7 Elementary Schools, Two High Schools, Two Middle Schools, with plans to Build a new Elementary School, A New Middle School, and a Third High School.

We are advertised as the closest thing your child will get to a private school in a public school setting. Many who leave us for private school come back. This is my first year getting fed students from the 2nd grade because of my grade switch. It really is not fair of me to judge the feeder classrooms on one year. Maybe this is a weak class......It is scary when 10 out of twenty are not on grade level and did not make a years growth. Who to blame?
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Old 02-24-2004, 11:17 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
Maybe this is a weak class......It is scary when 10 out of twenty are not on grade level and did not make a years growth. Who to blame?
Parents? The very last group to be "accountable?"


No, wait, it can't be them. They vote.
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Old 02-24-2004, 11:28 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by martha


Parents? The very last group to be "accountable?"


No, wait, it can't be them. They vote.

My parents? yep, they screwed me up pretty good.....
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Old 02-25-2004, 09:14 AM   #28
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Dread, I could write you a book here, but its midterm week for me and there just isn't time. Bring it up again later, and I can go into more detail. Briefly, it's a myth that teachers "have the summer off" and work 40 hours a week. Most teachers work at their second job (which we should not even have to have), do inservices or take classes during the summer. You should know that, as a teacher. Sure, it can be done in 40 hours if you leave at 3 and do nothing but xeroxes, but if you want a dynamic, engaging classroom, just not possible. That's how the system creates mediocrity.

Martha, again, bingo.

Back to the books,
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Old 02-25-2004, 10:40 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by martha
You can equivocate all you want, but those people on the payroll are representing me. I am a member of NEA. They act on my behalf. Too many people try to separate the members from the union, thinking they can criticize the union and still not anger the members. Without me, there is no union. The members ARE the union.
After sleeping on this, I want to appologize to you and Sherry if I was suggesting that you, as teachers, are "terrorists" or any deragatory term. The teachers I have worked with did not identify with their union to the extent you have described.

My frustration is that the percentage of education money making its way to the classroom is far too small. I would rather see money spent on administration (both for the government and the union) shifted to the classrooms.
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Old 02-25-2004, 11:08 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


My frustration is that the percentage of education money making its way to the classroom is far too small. I would rather see money spent on administration (both for the government and the union) shifted to the classrooms.
Preach it, brother!!!






(Apology accepted. Incident forgotten.)
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