Human Cloning

[80sU2isBest]

What do you think about the prospect of eventually being able to clone human beings? Not only do I consider it unethical, it scares me. man may be able to clone human beings, but the soul can only come from God, and the idea of a bunch of sole-less humans walking around frightens the hell out of me.

 

[melon]

Do you think that, perhaps, God puts souls in these people? We can agree that God creates souls, but humans really do create themselves, whether it is through sex (humans create the sperm and the eggs in the respective sexes) or otherwise.

Cloning is certainly an issue that was never put in the Bible, and I do, personally, find it to be a dangerous proposition. I do believe, however, that God would still give these cloned humans souls, which only would be fitting of a just and loving God. Outside of hysteria, I don't know how one can make such an assumption that they wouldn't.

One thing, though:

-- If you have deemed that cloned beings have no souls, then why would it be wrong to do what ACT in Massachusetts did, and just clone embryos for the purposes of creating stem cells--i.e., no intention of bringing these cloned embryos to birth? If they are simply just a blob of cells with no souls, then does it really matter then?

Isn't philosophy grand?

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time

 

[Zoo Schabow]

What if we cloned all the supermodels a bunch of times and that's it?

Think how much better this world would be!

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"And I can feel the cold steel. And I can make a wound that won't heal."- Bono

 

[Anthony]

As always, I will disagree with 80sU2isBest when it comes to the concept of religion, but not without respect.

I do agree with Melon's notion that clones won't necessarily lack souls. I happen to believe that every living creature has a 'soul' of some sort, for it is alive. Yes yes, I know it doesn't do much for your imagination if you're one of those people who believe that our spirits soar to the sky and meet St. Peter at the gate, just imagine - the souls of pigs and dogs running havok (Heaven must be one stinky place) but they were all created by It (I will not call God 'Him') and eventually go back to It (As you can see, I don't believe in Heaven).

As for cloning, I have always been terrified of it. Not because clones are souless zombies that roam the Earth like Frankestien, but the concept of human arrogance is so overwhelming it frightens me. Films like JURASSIC PARK, WESTWORLD and other Man-Acting-Like-God films are always there to show humanity how arrogant they have become. I have always been against cloning, not for moral reasons, but for reasons of logic. Life will not be contained, or manipulated for that matter.

However, there is a side of me that thinks of the benefits. Apparently they want this to happen to find a cure for cancer, which is certainly a very noble cause; but for every noble cause, humanity finds some other corruptive alternative.

If you ask me, these clones would be exactly like us (yes, soul inclusive) and would have equal rights as us, what kind of creatures would we be if we propagated such beings for our own personal gain? It would be like considering them as a sub-species, and for that, you needn't search further than a convicted rapist.

As for clones, I find that area something that fills me with too many questions. I am far too ignorant to have an opinion on it, I only have questions of the unknown, and a fear that Humanity will prove in the future just how cold-blooded it can be in its arrogance from time to time.

Ant.

 

[Lemonite]

Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
What do you think about the prospect of eventually being able to clone human beings? Not only do I consider it unethical, it scares me. man may be able to clone human beings, but the soul can only come from God, and the idea of a bunch of sole-less humans walking around frightens the hell out of me.

Yah.. Geez.. It freaked me out when the news came out tha they had cloned the first embryo.. That's some scary shiz.. I think they should back off of that... For the same reasons 80s just stated...

 

[Lemonite]

Originally posted by Anthony:
As always, I will disagree with 80sU2isBest when it comes to the concept of religion, but not without respect.

I do agree with Melon's notion that clones won't necessarily lack souls. I happen to believe that every living creature has a 'soul' of some sort, for it is alive. Yes yes, I know it doesn't do much for your imagination if you're one of those people who believe that our spirits soar to the sky and meet St. Peter at the gate, just imagine - the souls of pigs and dogs running havok (Heaven must be one stinky place) but they were all created by It (I will not call God 'Him') and eventually go back to It (As you can see, I don't believe in Heaven).

As for cloning, I have always been terrified of it. Not because clones are souless zombies that roam the Earth like Frankestien, but the concept of human arrogance is so overwhelming it frightens me. Films like JURASSIC PARK, WESTWORLD and other Man-Acting-Like-God films are always there to show humanity how arrogant they have become. I have always been against cloning, not for moral reasons, but for reasons of logic. Life will not be contained, or manipulated for that matter.

However, there is a side of me that thinks of the benefits. Apparently they want this to happen to find a cure for cancer, which is certainly a very noble cause; but for every noble cause, humanity finds some other corruptive alternative.

If you ask me, these clones would be exactly like us (yes, soul inclusive) and would have equal rights as us, what kind of creatures would we be if we propagated such beings for our own personal gain? It would be like considering them as a sub-species, and for that, you needn't search further than a convicted rapist.

As for clones, I find that area something that fills me with too many questions. I am far too ignorant to have an opinion on it, I only have questions of the unknown, and a fear that Humanity will prove in the future just how cold-blooded it can be in its arrogance from time to time.

Ant.

And I'll agree with ANthony here that embryo's for stem cell research, I do think that is ok, because some wonderful wonderful tings can come from it.. but then I've got to say .. no farther.. That's such a fine line i've just drawn.. which makes this such a difficult issue.. D@mn.. I love philosophy too, though I hate the philo part.. Hah.. a meaningless contradiction.. drown me in Kant.. Drown me in Kant...

 

[The Wanderer]

I'm not opposed to it at all, as long as it's regulated and done for specific scientific reasons (i.e., stem cells, research, etc)

whether it's banned in the USA or not, somewhere someone will carry on this work, wouldn't you like to see it done under the watchful eye of US Government, media and public? or maybe the Government already is secretively engaged in this sort of thing...

anyway, why would a cloned human be without a soul? (or a "sole" for that matter

)

I think the very idea is fascinating, imagine cloning someone and setting them up in different environments, would go a long way in answering many questions about heredity and environment...

people are making some major assumptions about God

 

[Angela Harlem]

Assumptions are all we have on the God thing wanderer.

I dont know where I stand on this issue, its all the unknown factors that make me wonder. I think science can only go so far.

Glad you brought up the Nature Vs Nurture thing too, I was going to start a thread on it, but think I'll wait to see where this leads.

Forgot the stem cells thing. Aren't humans esentially just cells? Oops, yes, its the soul thing again isn't it?

Where exactly is this line we could draw on the limits of it?



[This message has been edited by Angela Harlem (edited 11-28-2001).]

 

[Klodomir]

I refuse to believe that God wouldn't put souls into cloned human beings. He wouldn't be doing his job right if he didn't.

I am against human cloning, in fact I'm against animal cloning too, but it will happen, so it's important that every country in the world takes a stand and decides what to do when it does happen. I'm not even talking about preventing it, because it will happen. It's only a matter of time before they go further than just letting the cells divide a few times.

I have also heard ideas about creating headless clones for spare parts, so that they could just be stored and wouldn't be considered "alive". Spooky...

Zoo Schabow, you'll get a real girlfriend some day. Patience!

 

[DrTeeth]

I agree with The Wanderer + what's wrong with being able to clone?

 

[adam's_mistress]

I certainly don't know enough about cloning, although the idea of it makes me feel as though I'm living out a science fiction movie.

I do have opinions about it though. My first opinion is that these clones would have a soul. Even if clones are manufactured, they are still leaving breathing entities who will also have feelings and minds of their own no doubt. Test tube children have souls, yet they were "manufactured" outside the womb before they were implanted in a woman's uterus.

Which comes another thought. Science has not found a way to carry an human embryo to full term without a human womb in which to nurture the growing baby. As far as we know, clones/humans cannot be nurtured in vats - they are human, and humans afterall need a womb which will bring it to full term before it joins the world. With that in mind, does anyone think it possible for a woman to want to carry a clone child in her womb for government or scientific purposes? Speaking as a mother, I would find any woman using her womb as a mere machine for the production of cloning to be quite disturbing. The child within grows, has a beating heart, kicks, hiccups - It is alive regardless of whether or not it is a clone, it is a human nontheless... a human with a soul and a life ahead of it.

Which brings another rambling thought to mind. Say a couple has a son or daughter. Say this same couple went to great lengths to have a child. Say this couple, to be on the 'safe side' decided to bank away that child's dna just in case later on in life, that dna was needed in case of illness etc. Now say, the horrible happens and the child was either killed by an outside force, or died from a horrible disease. The parents would be crushed but wait... they have their dead child's dna backed up and cloning that child becomes a possibility. Would it be moral of the mother and father to look to science to that they could have another child just like the one that died? I know that if something happened to my son, I'd be crushed and life would be hard to continue... but I'm not so sure I'd look to cloning my son should my son die. I can't speak for all mothers, but that is my thought (no matter how rambling and incoherant this post may be - I apologize)

As far as stem cell research goes. I'm personally all for it. This is amazing science with the potential to come up with cures for diseases. It's a step above utilizing the placenta to combat illnesses or utilize skin cells for grafting later on in life. Stem cell research has endless possibilities for humankind that may eventually help us all, much like how medicine and vaccinations have helped many people in the face of life threatening disease right down to the common cold. But this science lies in the hands of scientists as well as the government and unfortunately we are forced (in a way) to put all our trust in other people and hope that they use the right judgement.

 

[Spiral_Staircase]

In my opinion, I see nothing morally wrong with cloning, in and of itself. However, I can't see any morally acceptable purpose that is a likely outcome. I don't know why anyone would think that a human clone wouldn't have a soul. My wife is a natural clone -- an identical twin. She has a soul.
The idea that people would try to "replace" a child that died with a "clone" seems insane to me. If you clone someone, they would have the same genes, that's all. They would not be the same person at all. I think people have watched too many movies like "Multiplicity".

Anyway, the problem I see is not with cloning itself, it's that the most likely purpose for doing it is to kill or experiment with the clone. I find that morally unacceptable. If the only reason to create a human life is to destroy it, I think that's wrong.

[This message has been edited by Spiral_Staircase (edited 11-28-2001).]

 

[U2Bama]

I would rather we not clone humans.

 

[Se7en]

human cloning = bad idea

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The numeral 7

 

[hermes]

Anyway, the problem I see is not with cloning itself, it's that the most likely purpose for doing it is to kill or experiment with the clone. I find that morally unacceptable.

I Agree, just because they are clones doesn't make them less human. One of the reasons why all this ridiculous talk of Clones not having souls scares me.

 

[poptart2001]

i am against human cloning but i respect others thoughts on the subject
if a person has a genetic disesase which will be passed on to his/her child then i dont see this as a bad thing.
But just to clone a child for the sake of it i think it is awful
it is not natural !!!!


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a vampire or a victim it depends on whos around

Dont let the Bastards grind you down

 

[poptart2001]

as for having a soul i also think everthing living has a soul but i just see this as really un natrual.god chooses the children we give birth too not science

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a vampire or a victim it depends on whos around

Dont let the Bastards grind you down

 

[Klodomir]

poptart2001, not that I'm necessarily disagreeing with you, but I really don't get that "it's not natural" line that people give as response to everything from homosexuality to cloning. Look at an average day in your life - i bet you do a hundred things that are not natural. Look at people getting plastic hips, using contact lenses or flying on airplanes? Is that natural?

Again, I do not necessarily disagree with your opinion, I just don't think that cloning being "unnatural" is rather irrelevant.

 

[poptart2001]

I dont think of homosexualitly as being un-natural (that is the way you were made)
as for contact lenses and hips and so on,these things improve the qualitly of your life,so i think that is a different matter.
as for cloning as i said in my previous post i agree with it if it is going to improve your life (e.g you have a genetic disorder)
but cloning jut for the sake of it is un-natural

thanks for your thoughts,i respect everyone elses opionons and it s intreasting to see what other ppl think on this subject.



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a vampire or a victim it depends on whos around

Dont let the Bastards grind you down

 

[adam's_mistress]

Originally posted by Klodomir:
poptart2001, not that I'm necessarily disagreeing with you, but I really don't get that "it's not natural" line that people give as response to everything from homosexuality to cloning. Look at an average day in your life - i bet you do a hundred things that are not natural. Look at people getting plastic hips, using contact lenses or flying on airplanes? Is that natural?

Again, I do not necessarily disagree with your opinion, I just don't think that cloning being "unnatural" is rather irrelevant.

I don't necessarily disagree with poptart either, but I just had another thought (actually I had this thought a while ago when I was away from this board)

How about in vitro fertilization, or fertility drugs? Surely these methods aren't "natural" in the truest sense of the word. I know this may be straying off topic here, but what do some people think about fertility treatments in order to have children? How about people who have multiple births, (like the family that had 7 children in one go) Sure the result is "natural," but the methods in which the pregnancy occured was not. Any thoughts?

 

[Klodomir]

adam's_mistress: the examples you mentioned are exactly what I'm thinking of when I say that arguing that cloning is "unnatural" while accepting the practices you mention doesn't make sense.

So one might make the claim that cloning is immoral or risky for different reasons, but practically everything in our modern world is unnatural.

 

[poptart2001]

IVF may not be natural no but as you said the outcome is.
when you have Ivf you do not choose the type of child you want, but with cloning you can, so i see this as a different matter altogether,
there are lots of unnatrual things you do in everday life but none as important as clonig,my child has learning disabilites and i am proud of him the way he is i cant unserstand why people would want to make a child to suit them!!!!as said in my previous post i do agree with it,if say there are genetic disorders which would badly affect the chids life.
but it scares me because i think it could get out of hand!!!!!!
sory if im not making much sense,i find it hard to put down what i actually think lol


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a vampire or a victim it depends on whos around

Dont let the Bastards grind you down