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Old 02-15-2004, 07:30 PM   #16
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Originally posted by beli
For the record I have voted Democrats or Greens (depending on what we have in my electorate at the time) for over the past decade.

I just hope that the election is a clean fight - no slander, no muck racking - just the facts jack. Then I might consider voting for one of the big two.

I have done the same also and at the 2001 state election I copped a $120 fine for not voting, as I had the choice of One Nation, Liberal and Labor. I decided to take my 'democratic' right not to vote, as I did not subscribe to the policies of any of those representing my electorate and because of my democratic opinions I got a nice little fine, anyway I feel the same, if the Labor party could look back in history and adopt the policies and actions of Whitlam for example, and stop being just a shade lighter than the Libs, then maybe I might be persuaded to push my vote their way
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Old 02-15-2004, 08:19 PM   #17
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[

Sorry, but I find Howard to be extremely racist, I hate his policies and distrust him imensely and I also cant stand numerous things that he has either done or not done (saying 'sorry') during his terms as leader, in a metaphoric levle I would almost be ready to renounce myself as an Australian if he gets in again. Another three years of him and being appaled and sad over his policies and actions, I dont want to see that [/B]


Feel exactly the same way over here, Australia has become a worse nation since he became leader, and now there is excessive tension and division within the australian community.

Australia used to be a nation which was starkly independent to anyone else, and i feel that we wre not so much of a 'lucky' country anymore. The traditional Aussie way of life has been overwhelmed by a nation which is becoming increasingly elitist and the big wigs are full of hot headed arrogance. Bring back the 80's I say. Now we are just another nation kissing the feet of the Americans, and at greater risk of a terrorist attack.

When people ask me where I come from I say I'm victorian and proud of it, I kinda feel awkward saying I like being an Aussie, when we got such a government as we currently have.


If Latham wins, I might become a proud Australian again, not just a proud victorian.
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Old 02-16-2004, 03:27 AM   #18
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I am really impressed with everyone's arguments! (I guess I am a bit biased though, seeing as most of you dislike Howard and I feel the same way).

But you've alll brought up some really interesting points. Education for me is a big issue, having finished my Arts degree in November and looked (unsuccessfully) for a job ever since. I don't mind HECS since now I don't have to worry about it until I do start working. I was pretty happy with the standard of my education and I think the system is fine as it is, it doesn't need any changes. Except, perhaps, the whole fee-paying thing where rich but dumb people get uni places ahead of smart but poor people.

And funding for state schools, now that's just ridiculous. The Libs countered it by saying it's the state's responsibility to fund state schools. Okay, fair enough. But since when is it the commonwealth's responsibility to fund private schools? Howard just proved his ignorance by making the values-neutral comment. My dad rang our local (Liberal) member the day that comment was made, was told he would get a reply the same day, and waited about two weeks to get a platry letter in the mail saying how much our local member supports Howard. Well that was just a waste of time for everyone concerned.

So ... I voted Team Beattie in the Queensland election, and I am going to vote Team Latham in the federal election. Not necessarily because I think Labor has better policies (although on education I certainly think they do) but because I think Latham will be a much better leader than Howard or Costello, or whoever else the Libs might dredge up.

Keep the discussion going because I'm very keen to read everyone else's opinions!
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Old 02-16-2004, 04:59 AM   #19
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In some ways Costello would be better than Howard. He leans further left and is much more leanient on issues like asylum seakers, the republic (he's pro) and foreign issues (a lot of people think he was an almost lone voice against Iraq behind closed doors).

BUT I don't want a Liberal government. I hope Latham impresses me. It's too early yet, I wouldn't expect him to yet. And I agree, Labor does education far better. They just seem to understand it's importance.

OH, Oz Aurora?!? You didn't vote One Nation?!?
I'm so glad they are dead and buried. They showed up an ugly, ugly side to this country, and obviously so many of Howards policies, in fact a whole change in Howards direction (ie swing hard right) were due to them. Unfortunately a lot of Australians agree with them.

All I know is I'm not voting Liberal. Not sure who though.
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Old 02-16-2004, 06:28 AM   #20
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Poor old Pauline, I hate to say it but I really hate it that it was in Queensland that One Nation and the whole Pauline Hanson debacle originated, why is it that so many Queenslanders can be so damn red-necked and now folks, lets not forget which party Pauline orignially held the seat of Oxley for, thats right the Libs, funny that hey!!!!!



I find two things quite similar in Pauline and Howard, they both seem to have an ability to relie on fear mongering and scare tactics at the poles, I just find it so embarrasing that so many Aussies believe their tripe, maybe we are becoming more and more like America
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Old 02-16-2004, 08:51 AM   #21
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Add commonwealth funding to private schools to Howard's balls ups indeed. Actually the whole public school thing pains me greatly, but that's not the govt's fault entirely. My dad works at the snooty exclusive girl's school Kerry Packer's daughter is/was at (can't remember if this is current) and the Head Mistress there has this iron clad policy of unneccesary absences resulting in being expelled. Packer and his family went on some extravagent overseas holiday and the daughter got back to school late. Principal said "Sorry Mr P, remove your daughter immediately etc etc" Mr Packer said "Aww come on, surely there is some way I can make this up to you?" She said "Ok then, we could use a new movie theatre" 10 million dollars later, princess Packer was still there and the school had a nice mini Hoyts.
Anyone who reckons these schools require outside funding can kiss my arse.
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Old 02-16-2004, 04:56 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by OzAurora
I have done the same also and at the 2001 state election I copped a $120 fine for not voting, as I had the choice of One Nation, Liberal and Labor.
I once had the choice of a Liberal (Richard Courts brother/Sir Charles Courts son), a Labor, and an exLiberal. I voted for the exLiberal as at least he had the decency to leave.

The private school thing concerns me too. I attended the most expensive school in Perth. There were lots of red sports cars in the shaded Year 12 parking lot. I agree that the public schools are a mess but I dont believe giving up on the whole system is the way to go. I want my children to go to a co-ed, multi "class' school.

I personally have issues with the lack of child care. I have friends who are due to give birth this year and need to return to work in January for financial reasons (myself included) and have put their name down at 8 child care centres and still dont have a place. Actually the whole working family thing sucks. My husband and I are both on crappy wages but if we both work we earn enough to cope. If I quit work and we lived on my husbands wages we would get some government perks but still be financially worse off ie we are the working poor. I really believe the governments need to assist families (tax breaks, something) so that its feasible for the mother to stop working for a while to give birth. Im not talking long term, just for a while. I have friends who went back to work when the baby was 6 weeks old as they couldnt afford to be away from work any longer. Thats not good for the baby, the mother, or Australia. I dont believe Howard has any comprehension of what its like to try and stop working long enough to give birth. Actually, if I wanted to get really narky I would say that Howard doesnt understand women at all. Not necessarily his fault, he is from a different generation, which is all the more reason why his time is up.

The cowering behind other countries, I dont like either. I wanted/ still want Australia to become a republic. Howard used to live under Englands skirts - before he switched and became pals with Bush. Maybe we need Bush to go too? Howard didnt get on half as well with Clinton. Bush scares me and the fact that Howard is listening to Bush absolutely terrifies me.
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Old 02-16-2004, 08:11 PM   #23
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Originally posted by beli

I personally have issues with the lack of child care.
That's a good point, one which I hadn't really thought of yet. I don't plan on having kids myself for a while yet (I'm only 20) but if and when I do, I certainly hope the system is better than what it is now.

As it is, I do have a lot of friends with young kids - who had their kids while they were still at school or just after finishing - and don't work, rely on their families for help and get a pittance from the government. Now, I'm all for mothers being able to stay home with their kids. I think that's the best solution for everyone. But I also think teenage mothers in particular should have the opportunity to get a better education or a better paying job, so their kids can have a better chance at life.

I personally envisage myself staying home with my kids at least until they start school. This dream would depend on me having a rich husband who can support us ... or me getting a nice job now (which isn't happening) and saving a lot of money. There is no way I would count on maternity leave or any other government incentive. And besides, I wouldn't want to put a baby into childcare. Remembering the few times I went to daycare when I was younger is enough to put me off that!
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Old 02-17-2004, 01:58 AM   #24
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Whatever happened to compulsory maternity leave? What a suprise it never eventuated.
I agree with you both on childcare.
I dont understand the lack of support in this area from the government. Surely the amount they can scab off us in tax would outweigh the amount the childcare needs to provide for everyone.
Good luck with your plans Buffalo. I am not being sarcastic either. All you need is an income of $50k + from your other half and you can live out this dream. Have a nest egg of $30k to see you through to school age and that will do you for one child in Sydney. Brisbane is possibly a bit different, but you dont even need a sugar daddy necessarily for it. Factor in more than one child and your future family will be as fucked as the rest in this country. Childcare is not a luxury, yet it somehow becomes an unwitting and unplanned one in our society. Unfortunately not many of us have the foresight required to end up not relying somehow on the government in these aspects of our lives, or we do have the foresight but fate and life has other plans. In an ideal world none of this would matter if we managed to pay off our mortgages in the minimum 5 years it is actually possible to do. Guess we then hope that another Labor government wont be around at the time and do what they did before and we find ourselves with another situation where interest rates are a record 17%. I doubt it would happen again, but who would have thought it would have happened back then. It's a perpetual lesser of 2 evils. We get so disillusioned with one we are in such a hurry to get rid of whoever is in currently, when we end up just hoping they don't end up fucking it up as much as the one just gone. That makes no sense, but I can't be arsed retyping it.
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Old 02-17-2004, 05:48 AM   #25
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And besides, I wouldn't want to put a baby into childcare. Remembering the few times I went to daycare when I was younger is enough to put me off that!
Daycares pretty good. It provides my daughter with lots of opportunities that she wouldnt have otherwise. Recently they have had a troop of Aboriginal dancers in to show them all how to use clapping sticks etc. These is financially feasible if you are dividing it by 70 odd kids but not feasible for me with one child. Obviously I would prefer she had more one on one attention but we arent wealthy.

Buffalo, I agree with Angie, I think you are underestimating the cost of living with a child, which is understandable as you havent been there yet. With my first child I had saved my annual leave for years (ie no time off) so I had 10 weeks annual leave plus where I work I am fortunate enough to receive 12 weeks paid materity leave so that got me through 22 weeks. I worked up until 2 and a half weeks before giving birth so I could afford to spend more of my leave after the birth with the baby. But its the mortgages that is the killer. And the cost of a child eg washing detergent, medical costs (little babies get sick a lot, and new mothers get paranoid even more often). As well as the cost of the actual birth. I think she cost me about $2000. I didnt have an antheatistic (sp?) so I saved some money there. And my daughter was born with clicky hips so there were paedatrician (sp?)bills as well. All new borns have little problems. I dont know anyone who hasnt either had a complicated birth or a child with a little medical problem.

Anyway, they are EXPENSIVE little dears. I wouldnt swap them for the world, though.
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Old 02-18-2004, 11:15 PM   #26
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Originally posted by beli

Buffalo, I agree with Angie, I think you are underestimating the cost of living with a child, which is understandable as you havent been there yet.
Oh, I didn't mean I was going to be able to stay home with my kids! That's just a dream ... my mum did with me and my two sisters, living in Sydney, and we were very poor then. I'd probably get bored anyway with no job outside the house for all those years.

I think childcare is good for the social benefits, like the Aboriginal dancers you mentioned, that would have been great. But ... for a little kid to be with a huge group of people for up to 10 hours, every day, and with little time to spend with their own families, that I don't agree with.

Back on the original topic, did anyone see Mark Latham's address yesterday? I watched the part about families and education, and was quite impressed. I don't know if he spoke about other things though ...
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Old 02-19-2004, 07:19 AM   #27
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I didnt hear that bit but I read about how Australian males have lost their masculine identity as stated by Mark "Punch The Taxi Driver' Latham.

Sorry, I have no tolerance for violence.

Cant recall what Howard said today, something along the lines that proved yet again he has no clue about women and/or the reality of the household of the working-poor.

Brilliant choice in leaders we have. I think I will be voting backwards as per usual. 37 = Liberal, 36 = Labor, 35 = Fred Niles party.........
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Old 02-19-2004, 04:28 PM   #28
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This is sending me insane. Does anyone have a link or the text of what Howard said yesterday? Something along the lines of modern children are unruly because the parents spend to much time on leisure activities. Im hoping I heard it incorrectly and would love to read the full text of what he said.

Edited:
Found it at: http://www.thewest.com.au/20040220/n...sto120234.html


Quote:
In Parliament, Prime Minister John Howard endorsed the need for parents to take responsibility for their kids.

"I certainly do agree completely with the proposition that parents should know where their children are," Mr Howard said.

"I think one of the reasons that children run riot in the streets is that parents are too selfish about pursuing their own pleasures and too indifferent to their responsibilities as parents to do anything about it."

But he said most parents cared properly for their children and did not need politicians' advice on how to bring them up. "In fact they resent any suggestion that somebody is going to come along, Big Brother-like, and say this is how you've got to do it," he said.
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Old 02-20-2004, 05:30 AM   #29
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It's a (political) wedge a week with our mate Johnny. Atomic wedgie ready for the election no doubt.

Where would he be without the weekly talking points, I wonder?

I never trust any politician who starts navel-gazing about the problems with this or that group of people. We elected these people, they answer to us. We are not here to obey their orders, but in fact the reverse.
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Old 02-20-2004, 05:34 AM   #30
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Also, only a fuckwit would equate masculinity with violence... there's more than enough half-crazy boofheads already who think that a short fuse is a sign of strength. It doesn't need encouraging.

I don't know precisely what Latham was on about, but it wouldn't surprise me. On the other hand, I perhaps shouldn't lecture too much cause you don't become Prime Minister by being a nice guy. The last gentleman PM I can think of would have been Bill Hayden... oh that's right, he got rolled.
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