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Old 10-20-2007, 07:34 PM   #31
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Originally posted by MadelynIris
I would hope 'real men' stay married too, especially when their families need them.
My problem with this is A) Orr didn't mention anything about "real men" staying married in the title - just women. If she thought men needed to hear this message as well, why wasn't the title "Real Men and Women Stay Married"? It's almost like she's holding women soley responsible for upholding marriage. B) Sometimes "real women" (and men) seriously do need to get out of bad, unhealthy marriages where there is physical and/or emotional abuse going on. Also, although I don't believe people should get divorced at the drop of a hat, sometimes people just can't make it work for whatever reason and are making each other miserable. I know divorce can be hard on kids, but so can having parents who fight constantly.
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Old 10-20-2007, 08:02 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by MadelynIris
M
Hmmm... Most plans don't cover birth control. There might be some folks on this board that are fortunate enough to have this, but I think it's rare. Federal workers (myself being one), get some good deals that we probably shouldn't when weighed against the average worker.
What kind of country are you people living in? Honestly, I have to wonder sometimes. I don't know anyone with any private insurance plan in Canada (through their employer) who doesn't have birth control pills covered. That's absurd, given the high percentage of women who need them for "legitimate" medical reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with this blessed fertility Orr speaks of.
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Old 10-20-2007, 08:33 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram


What kind of country are you people living in? Honestly, I have to wonder sometimes. I don't know anyone with any private insurance plan in Canada (through their employer) who doesn't have birth control pills covered. That's absurd, given the high percentage of women who need them for "legitimate" medical reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with this blessed fertility Orr speaks of.
Given enough time and a majority government, I'm sure our dick of a PM will find a way to take that away from women. He is already looking to raise the age of consent from 14 to 16 by using the U.S style of slipping multiple laws into a one giant piece of legislation. Right wing agenda, you betcha!!
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Old 10-20-2007, 09:27 PM   #34
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The problem with Harper's tough crime stance is that the conservatives keep drafting bills that are hopeless. Take Bill C-32, which they lobbied hard for, but essentially fell through the cracks, because they insist on introducing amendments to the CC which will just either not fly, or will be tossed out by the SCC for being unconstitutional.

Still baffles me why a drug plan would exclude birth control, anywhere, though. Weirdos.
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Old 10-20-2007, 10:27 PM   #35
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I now get 3 months of birth control at a time (generics only, though) for $10 through my insurance plan. I'm not sure if the reason for getting has any bearing. My prescription is for reasons other than birth control so I don't know. They won't cover my epileptic husband's EEG test though, figure that one out....
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Old 10-21-2007, 02:50 AM   #36
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I think everyone can agree that ideally, all parents would communicate openly with their children about sex, birth control, and STDs well before they become capable of getting pregnant or getting someone else pregnant. But the reality is A) not all parents do that, and B) even where they do, that's no guarantee that their children will always make good decisions about sex, much less that they'll feel comfortable openly discussing their sex lives with their parents if and when they begin to have one. Parents can't keep children under lock and key to prevent all possibility of sexual activity, nor can children force their parents to provide contraceptives for them if the parents are opposed to it. While I think sexual activity at junior high age is a bad idea, I would rather that children who are going to do it anyway have access to protection from pregnancy and STDs. I read in USA Today that Baltimore's public school system has seen a 73% drop in their teen pregnancy rate since making birth control available through school clinics (which are generally only found in schools serving primarily socioeconomically disadvantaged kids to begin with, and offer a full range of medical care including dentistry, etc.) back in the 1990s. That's definitely a better result than not offering birth control at all and seeing a much smaller teen pregnancy decrease (the teen pregnancy rate has decreased nationwide since that time, but only by 28%).

I do agree with Irvine though that the focus should be on encouraging the use of condoms, not the Pill, which does nothing to protect from STDs.
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Old 10-21-2007, 09:37 AM   #37
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Originally posted by MadelynIris

So, yeah, she's conservative, no surprise. I'm sure Hillary will appoint someone more to your liking.
Nope -if someone she appointed was carrying out a political/religious agenda I wouldn't like that either. You honestly think that someone in that position should be there to carry out a political and/or religious agenda? It's on a similar spectrum to pharmacists who refuse to prescribe the morning after pill because it's against their religious beliefs-it has no place in that job. When the person you are appointing to such a job starts referring to preventing pregnancy as being about a "culture of death" that's inappropriate. Because guess what-many of the people she is serving, the citizens, don't believe that.

And people Bush appoints always seem to be somehow blaming the woman for sexual issues, marriage, etc. That real woman quote sounds like it's straight out of Dr. Laura's handbook Maybe Bush should appoint Dr. Laura for that job.
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Old 10-21-2007, 09:45 AM   #38
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Don't give him ideas. It's best when he doesn't have ideas.
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Old 10-21-2007, 10:05 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by MadelynIris

Hmmm... Most plans don't cover birth control. There might be some folks on this board that are fortunate enough to have this, but I think it's rare. Federal workers (myself being one), get some good deals that we probably shouldn't when weighed against the average worker.
I would say there are two problems with this:
1. Because not every plan includes birth control, those which have it should drop it?
2. "Fertility is not a disease", hence no birth control in health insurance is a crappy comparison (or whatever that is meant to be). Birth control, as well as fertility, is part of health, and face it: Not everyone wants five+ children or stop having sex after the second child.

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I can't imagine anyone endorsing a program the 'actively promoted abortion as a method of family planning'. Can you?
I would say it's just a oversimplification accusing any organisation to go and say, "Well, all you have to do if it went wrong is to abort". This issue is far too complex, but you shouldn't exclude abortion entirely. I'm sure those organisations make sure to teach the people every means of birth control before abortion, but also don't keep secret that abortion exists.
If there really was an organisation who goes and teaches abortion as the way to successful "family planning", I agree, don't support it.
But I doubt those organisations are solely meant as there are far too few.

Quote:
Ok, I get her position. It's still up to the insurer, they are all different and if a program wants to cover b/c, good for them. I bet it has more to do with the 'day after pill' or actual abortions rather than condoms.
Again, her assumptions are highly questionable, and ridiculous. This "collaborators with the culture of death" statement is so silly, or more bluntly, stupid, it is very telling of the kind of organisation that is paying her to work in this field.
She is speaking of contraceptives in general, so if there wasn't anything left out she said before indicating she was speaking about the day after pill explicitely, which has been pointed out isn't like you have sex and then easily go to the doctor the next day and he just gives you the pill, I would assume she also includes the pill, condoms and everything else here.
That's ludicrous. Should we save any sperm the male body produces to save a life?
Birth control and family planning, and god forbid, having sex before marriage or in marriage just for pleasure, is a reality in our society, something modern societies usually don't debate about anymore, and contraceptive is an ordinary part of modern health policy.
Culture of death is crap, really.

Quote:
I would hope 'real men' stay married too, especially when their families need them. I do my best to focus on my family and not myself at this stage in my life as well. Good parents are are largely selfless while raising their children. I'm getting ready to shell out close to 100k per year while both of my children go to college, and I couldn't be more proud. I haven't read the book, but I'm assuming that this is largely a play against marriages that produce several children, followed-up by an early divorce and all of the turmoil that 'sometimes' comes. I've seen it first hand, and have been saddened by these situations. Most of the damage is not because of the divorce, but because either both, or one parent is not supportive of the family, and is not selfless in their endeavor to support their children.
As pointed out before, sometimes marriages just don't work, and then "better an end with terror than terror without an end"

And yes, men have to be included as well.

Quote:
So, yeah, she's conservative, no surprise. I'm sure Hillary will appoint someone more to your liking.
American conservative I would like to add.
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Old 10-21-2007, 10:29 AM   #40
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Kids are having sex at such a young age. If you're having sex and don't want babies, use birth control.
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Old 10-21-2007, 11:50 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by yolland

I do agree with Irvine though that the focus should be on encouraging the use of condoms, not the Pill, which does nothing to protect from STDs.
I think the focus should be on both. I'm not a crazy feminist by any means, but why should all the focus go towards condoms/guys/penises and ignore the option that empowers the girls AND tackles many other issues at the same time (little kids with periods so heavy they have to miss school every month, etc)? If condoms would be so easily available, I don't see why birth control would be such a stretch.

I guess I'm looking at this issue from a broader perspective than just "birth control prevents unwanted pregnancy." I think that if an 11 year old girl is sexually mature (in the anatomical sense....getting her periods), then she should know and have available ALL of the options as far as birth control, regulation, dealing with symptoms that make it too painful for some girls/women to even walk...
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Old 10-21-2007, 12:13 PM   #42
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I have some hesitation about this because I would have to be assured that the physicians (assuming they are contracted by the school) are serving the interests of the patient and not perceived social interests (ie, ritalin, some antidepressants) I'm concerned we're moving farther along the road to social medication.
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Old 10-21-2007, 12:13 PM   #43
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Originally posted by Liesje
I'm not a crazy feminist by any means
It's ok to be a feminist.
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Old 10-21-2007, 12:14 PM   #44
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Originally posted by BonosSaint
are serving the interests of the patient and not perceived social interests (ie, ritalin, some antidepressants)
Not every ritalin prescription is "social medication." Some kids truly need it.
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Old 10-21-2007, 12:16 PM   #45
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That wasn't my point. I just think it often became an easy fix, too easily prescribed.
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