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Old 11-10-2001, 12:12 PM   #16
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Originally posted by Bathtime Fun Whortense:
i think the word, 'demagogue,' had damn well get retired in this forum!!!!111111 whomever uses it is a hypocrite, because then you yourself start trying to sway people using impassioned appeals to the emotions and prejudices of the populace by trying to dismiss your opponent as a fanatic, rather than criticizing him on the basis of facts. it seems, quite honestly, a lot of people are throwing around big words that probably are ill-used at best.

Melon, perhaps you'd like to tell me what the proper word for a person who argues with rhetorical techniques but not precise facts and thought is? I honestly don't know. Demagogues are certainly included in this class of people, but not the other way around.

And mug222, I didn't actually call you a "demagogue". I did think, on the basis of your original post, that you were a "demagogue," but your further clarifications clearly demonstrate that you are, in fact, not a "demagogue".

Enough "demagoguery" for now; I'll continue addressing mug222's arguments.

-I'm totally waving my hands here, but it seems like that it's harder to make progrees in war during winter, and so it makes sense for the US not to want to relinquish any advantages it has right now.

-mug, if I understand your argument correctly, you're not saying that we should avoid desecrating Ramadan by pausing the war; you're only arguing that we've hit the point of diminishing returns with respect to bombing. So how about if we sent in a bunch of ground troops and special agents to Afghanistan to attack the Taliban and hunt down al-Qaeda during Ramadan?

[This message has been edited by speedracer (edited 11-10-2001).]
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Old 11-10-2001, 12:28 PM   #17
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What is our fanatical obsession with having to label everything? Argue with mug222 and everyone else on the basis of arguments. Check in the namecalling at the door.

Last I heard, no one on this forum is really privy to "precise facts and thought," especially where "precise facts and thought" are dictated to us via the Pentagon.

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time
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Old 11-10-2001, 12:32 PM   #18
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Yeah, let's stop bombing! That would be REAL smart. Give me a break.

That's all from me.

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Old 11-10-2001, 12:42 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon:
What is our fanatical obsession with having to label everything? Argue with mug222 and everyone else on the basis of arguments. Check in the namecalling at the door.

Last I heard, no one on this forum is really privy to "precise facts and thought," especially where "precise facts and thought" are dictated to us via the Pentagon.

Melon

Uh, my fanatical obsession with labeling everything comes from a desire to compress certain definitions and terms so that they're more manageable, and nothing to do with smearing anyone.

Hence my fumbling about for a compression of "person who argues by using rhetorical devices, but not with precise facts or thought," and my retraction of any description of mug222 as a "demagogue".

And in that vein, "precise" means "well or sharply defined," while "accurate" means "free from error." So, Melon, are you complaining that the information the Pentagon discloses about the war is vague, or flat-out wrong, or both? (Sorry, sometimes I enjoy being annoyingly pedantic. )


[This message has been edited by speedracer (edited 11-10-2001).]
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Old 11-10-2001, 12:56 PM   #20
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Hmm...let's see.

In the last decade, it was all about the horrors of big government, and how we cannot trust the government to tell us the entire truth. Hence, the push for deregulation and privatization.

Now, all of a sudden, the government is now more trustworthy? I doubt it. I think the Pentagon does a fine job of "selective truth." For instance, it's funny this is brought up now, because on PBS, there was a discussion on this with a roundtable of journalists, and they brought up a recent incident, where the Pentagon released that special forces had just been dropped on Afghanistan and it happened with no injuries or casualties. In fact, however, after a journalist was tenacious enough with the Pentagon, it was revealed that there were, in fact, some injuries. None from enemy fire, but from the dangerous nature of parachuting from an airplane--i.e., some parachutes not working like they're supposed to. This may be a minor enough incident to be excusable, but the reality is that I do not trust our government to give us the whole truth. As they have stated that this war has a diplomatic and "public opinion" aspect to it, I fear that the same tactics are being used us to quelch any discontent. The only way I will be able to say, "I trust this," is if Western journalists are allowed to independently go into Afghanistan and report. It may be dangerous, but, as a journalist from the Washington Post said on PBS, there are always those dedicated to their job that they will willingly put themselves in danger to report what's going on. As it stands, this war in Afghanistan is as much of a war against terrorism as it is a war with potential for severe government propaganda, as currently structured.

Overall, I think that the Pentagon is reporting actual events, but is selectively holding back elements that may look unfavorable. I really doubt this war is happening as perfectly as we are being told. No wars are this perfect.

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time

[This message has been edited by melon (edited 11-10-2001).]
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Old 11-10-2001, 01:28 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon:
Overall, I think that the Pentagon is reporting actual events, but is selectively holding back elements that may look unfavorable. I really doubt this war is happening as perfectly as we are being told. No wars are this perfect.
Of course they're holding back elements, maybe they're even lying. But they can't reveal everything (and i don't mean tactical info here). They said they will win this war, so they will do very very much to win it, that's their main objective. And some things just aren't that pretty (war is never pretty) to tell the public. So they won't risk losing public support if they don't have to, and they don't. They have almost a total monopoly of the information coming from Afghanistan since the undereducated representatives of the Taliban in Pakistan -compared to them even GW Bush seems intelligent- are not really taken seriously (really not taken seriously?) by quality media.

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[This message has been edited by Vorsprung (edited 11-10-2001).]
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Old 11-10-2001, 01:33 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bathtime Fun Whortense:
i think the word, 'demagogue,' had damn well get retired in this forum!!!!111111 whomever uses it is a hypocrite, because then you yourself start trying to sway people using impassioned appeals to the emotions and prejudices of the populace by trying to dismiss your opponent as a fanatic, rather than criticizing him on the basis of facts. it seems, quite honestly, a lot of people are throwing around big words that probably are ill-used at best.

Well said!

People are certainly throwing big arounds around when they clearly don't know what the words mean.

Words like "you", "never", and "apologize".
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Old 11-10-2001, 01:34 PM   #23
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thank you Melon and zooropamanda.

need I say more?

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Old 11-10-2001, 02:06 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:
Well said!

People are certainly throwing big arounds around when they clearly don't know what the words mean.

Words like "you", "never", and "apologize".
I need not be nice anymore.

I am doing as I am asked by Elvis, and that is avoiding you. You, apparently, seem to continue provocation. This incident is being duly noted by me, and repeated provocation will force me to report you yet again. Consider this yet another warning.

I expect this kind of trolling from newbies, not from administrators.

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time

[This message has been edited by melon (edited 11-10-2001).]
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Old 11-10-2001, 08:51 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon:
I need not be nice anymore.

I am doing as I am asked by Elvis, and that is avoiding you. You, apparently, seem to continue provocation. This incident is being duly noted by me, and repeated provocation will force me to report you yet again. Consider this yet another warning.

I expect this kind of trolling from newbies, not from administrators.

Melon

You were being nice? And *I* am provoking you?

As I made clear in my post, I responded to THIS:

i think the word, 'demagogue,' had damn well get retired in this forum!!!!111111 whomever uses it is a hypocrite, because then you yourself start trying to sway people using impassioned appeals to the emotions and prejudices of the populace by trying to dismiss your opponent as a fanatic, rather than criticizing him on the basis of facts. it seems, quite honestly, a lot of people are throwing around big words that probably are ill-used at best.

This is obviously a snide remark about me, continuing the argument from the original thread.

You are not doing as Elvis asked. You are not avoiding me. You are provoking me.

As far as I was concerned, our dispute ended in the other thread; I was planning on avoiding you from that point on.

But I will not allow you to make such snide remarks and let them go unnoticed. If you continue to bring this up, I will continue to respond. Period.

This will go on for as long as you want. Shut up about it, and I will do the same.
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Old 11-10-2001, 08:54 PM   #26
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Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:
Shut up about it, and I will do the same.
done.

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Old 11-10-2001, 09:07 PM   #27
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Originally posted by Whortense:
done.

Good boys.

**gives bubba and melon new bones to chew on.



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