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Old 08-28-2004, 09:12 AM   #16
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Also, indirectly in response to a few other posts, I wouldn't go so far as to advocate a 'hierarchy' of sins, but what are we talking about here when we say 'criminal'? In contemporary society it is entirely possible to go to court and to jail for what are legally, criminal offences but are morally minor.

Murdering someone and tax evasion are not the same by any sane perspective, but you'll be imprisoned and/or socially disgraced for both, if caught.
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Old 08-28-2004, 09:19 AM   #17
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I don't think I wouldn't love someone anymore because they committed a crime
I would stop loving them if I lost my trust in them
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Old 08-28-2004, 09:29 AM   #18
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The driving force should be the betterment of oneself and mankind, to contribute to humanity to leave a better world than the one you came into. God has absolutely nothing to do with this, a fiction invented to make the world bearable as it is and not drive us to make it as it should be. If there is no god then we are truly alone, if we are truly alone then the only way to make things better is through our own devices. I dont believe in God or an afterlife but that still makes human life damn important, you only have one shot at it and everybody in the world deserves to have a decent shot, not something to be pissed away living in squalor or to be taken away by others.

Killing and plundering are bad because the short term monetary gain contributes nothing to the world, it merely destroys and breaks down society. Throughout human history we have progressed, now balance this progression of technology and nature with the single scourge that still exists, which is evil, it exists in all of us, that drive to kill, to plunder and take advantage. I think that that little piece of humanity can be extinguished when humanity can exist in a world where all people live free, where poverty and disease cannot exist, where technology is used for peace and prosperity rather than new ways of maiming eachother.

We possess such power today that humanity can no longer afford to remain divided; religion, nation and race must be abandoned or makind will simply destroy itself some time in the future. It is because of this shared threat that mindless self-interest can never be maintained, given the resources and technology I am quite sure that we can move forward for the better. From warring tribes we became kingdoms, from warring kingdoms nations and from nations I think humanity can become at peace, a true global peace where everyone in the world lives free of opression and ignorance. The obstacles to such a progression are found in the political ideologies of today, the religious superstition that has led to death cults that threaten millions - overcoming these barriers is the hard part and that is what holds back progression.

I am not religious but that does not mess up my moral compass. I think that people deserve to be free, to make their own choices and live their lives the way that they want without unwarrented interference - this must apply to all people with one single and important condition, their actions cannot hurt others or to an extent themselves (I wouldnt say that somebody who is suicidal should be allowed to go out and kill themselves if they can be prevented from doing so, but smoking or drinking that is allright). I feel, I love, I hate - I am a human being, no better or worse than most others. I feel bad about seeing a world full of such violence and hatred it makes me want to scream, I never look away from it and I have not become cold to it, for a little tour of what I think is fucked up about humanity take a look over the 20th Century, War, Genocides, Torture, Racism and Brutality all done on such magnificent scale in the advent of the modern age, technology being put to use albeit bad. What makes me feel good is to go out and look around me, living in a beautiful free country, peaceful and diverse, being able to live my life the way I want to, I feel good when I help out others, to try to make a difference somewhere. I would be absolutely ecstatic if everyone on earth could live like this, but then having to turn my eye back to the real world where a girl just a little bit younger than I is hung for having sex, where women and children are hacked to death with machetes because they are on the wrong side of the government, where dissent is crushed through deadly force and people become slaves to despots - I am of no illusion that liberal democracies are perfect, they are flawed in many ways but they are the best system we have today that can adequately function in the real world, only when we are all able to live our lives with liberty will progression be possible.

In regards to redemption, I would think that making up for what has been done and being granted favour for it is impossible when dealing with the non-descript crimes discussed here.
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Old 08-28-2004, 09:38 AM   #19
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Well fair enough, that is your view, thanks for answering the question.

What makes you so sure that God doesn't exist though? Your insistence that God is an invented fiction seems to me almost as dogmatic as any hard-core religious viewpoint, given as how you've absolutely no proof.
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Old 08-28-2004, 09:54 AM   #20
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How can I prove a negative? I can no more prove the non-existence of God as I can prove the non-existence of ET or the Easter Bunny.

No proof of god, I start from what I know, that the universe exists, that the world around me exists - I cannot see evidence for God. Now in all fairness a being of some infinite power may have created the universe, however to accept that such a being would make itself known to many a madman seems to defy belief. Especially considering the inherent nature of humanity to search for and invent higher beings to explain away problems, we were worshipping the sun before we were worshipping God, how is the concept of God any more valid than paganism?

God as a fiction, lets put this into perspective, man has existed for a very long time and human beings did not worship God in the distant past. It seems that human beings came about long before God was even reciognized, I think that it would make a lot of sence that God is an invention, an ultimate power to answer every question and justify any position. From the very beginning of the idea to today God seems to be very useful when you want to kill or segregate. It is no coincidence that men like Osama bin Laden are highly spiritual and no doubt devout believers, using God can truly bring the worst out of people but it can also bring out the best. I like to think that selfless acts of kindness represent the better side of our own humanity and not God. Religion is an instrument for this, but it can be done equally well if people were to embrace their own humanity.

I do not attempt to impose my way of thinking onto others, I can respect those of faith who lead good lives but I have absolutely no patience for religion justifying ignorance, murder or hatred. I think that only when given true freedom can humanity make any real decision about the pursuit of religion, it must be made without fear and by individuals, I certainly loath any system where free thought and belief is denied to people.

I do not believe that the type of God you find in scripture exists at all, it seems to be a part of humanity that we need that higher power. It is entirely possible that a God does exist and I can accept that, I just doubt that it would only make its presence felt to many a madman and "messiah" throughout the history of mankind.
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Old 08-28-2004, 10:03 AM   #21
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Well you know, they say that the cracked let in more light. I know, I'm being a little flippant, but while I consider myself a mostly rational person I do think that there's more going on than we can understand, so you know, sometimes things reveal themselves in mysterious ways.

Also, none of my posts are to imply you have a warped moral compass, simply to wonder what underpins your ideas.

Just to be snarky I'd add that the Christian religion has inspired as many attempts to create a kingdom of God on earth (in ways both modest and monstrous) so by no means does it automatically imply a sit-back-and-wait-for-the-aftelife posture in followers.
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Old 08-28-2004, 10:14 AM   #22
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Oh I would agree that Christanity has done a lot of good in the world, I would even argue that it does more good than bad today, I personally cannot say the same thing about some other religions because I cannot see the evidence for such a thing - it is not racist to be critical about religion that routinely sanctions violence against innocent people, I cannot sit back and tow a PC line for something I do not believe, I will speak my mind for the before mentioned reasons about how I view humanity and what I find wrong, my conviction on such issues is strong and you can be sure as hell that the next time a fundamentalist Christian community opresses all of its women and starts to murder Jews and Moslems I will have the same condemnation.

Heaven on Earth etc. are essentially the same thing all the major religions preach, I think that when you boil it down religion is an organized way of expressing the desire to see a better world, I just think if we kept that vision alive and shedded the religion and all that baggage it can be accomplished quicker and better. Religion is divisive, humanity is common - which is a better unifying force?

Now the universe, my oh my the universe, it has given me many a headache trying to comprehend this bastard of a thing called the universe - in my weaker moments I almost wish that there was definitive proof of God existing, it would make everything so much simpler. Well I think that the universe is a very very very raised to the power of very interesting blob of matter and energy on a thing. It contains so very much in it as well as so many intricacies I think that one cannot only look in awe at its supreme majesty without being inspired. Can it be unraveled? can we begin to understand the universe as a whole?

I say yes we can. Using the true language of the unverse (mathematics of course) one can explain anything. The limits to our knowledge are only tempory, given enough time and investigation I am quite sure that we can uncover even more about the universe (I want to see a decent explaination about the EPR paradox involving entangled particles, such non-exploitable transmission at superluminal speeds hints at some interesting things, all I want is faster than light travel, if I can get it is another question). When you look at the universe you may realize how utterly insignificant you truly are, only then can you understand why it is so damn important to stay alive - if you arent around who the hell will care.
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Old 08-28-2004, 01:07 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by fly on the wall



BAW: I think "believing they did it" is different when it has been proven that "they did it." No questioning needed...solid proof exsists.


Its not something I really want to talk about it public, but I have a lot of personal experience on this subject. Too much really. You can email me any time for further discussion.

mrs.hewson@gmail.com
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Old 08-28-2004, 02:49 PM   #24
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Just a clarification of my post...I don't think one needs to forgive a loved one who has committed a major crime to still love him/her. I think forgiveness can only be given by the victim of the crime...and perhaps not even then. And I don't think you even have to like the person to love them (obviously I'm talking about someone of the closeness noted in the opening post of the thread and I'm also assuming the crime committed wasn't against the the "you" in this scenario.
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Old 08-28-2004, 04:14 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kieran McConville
Also, indirectly in response to a few other posts, I wouldn't go so far as to advocate a 'hierarchy' of sins, but what are we talking about here when we say 'criminal'?

When I asked the original question, I was speaking morally and criminally. I am not sure that an tax evasion offence would drive you to question your love for someone like a sexual assault or murder (sorry, I thought I was more clear).


Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Love is but a biochemical adaption that enables parental care and social structure to exist, traits that have proven successful and thus passed down through DNA.
A_Wanderer....I've apprecaited your input into this conversation. Part of my problem with this question is that I feel your "moral fiber" is often passed through by your parents. Which makes this question even more difficult when it is your mother or father getting arrested/charged/convicted of a crime that is obviously against the law AND moraaly wrong in societies eyes.
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Old 08-28-2004, 04:15 PM   #26
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Originally posted by Bono's American Wife
Its not something I really want to talk about it public, but I have a lot of personal experience on this subject. Too much really. You can email me any time for further discussion.

mrs.hewson@gmail.com
Thank you for your e-mail...I have contacted you via another route this morning.
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Old 08-29-2004, 12:36 AM   #27
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I think it depends on a lot of things really. For instance I think that a lot of parents would still love their child no matter what they did, even if it was something heinous. That's not to say that they have forgiven them or don't think they deserve punishment, I think you can still love a person without forgiving them. I bet even jeffrey dahmer's parents still loved him, though they likely couldn't forgive what he had done (I don't know a lot about the dahmers or anything, this is just an example). I think with other relatives it is not necessarily the same, the bond people have with their children is like none other. Some people are capable of this kind of unconditional love and others aren't (for example the person who disowns their child for being gay, getting pregnant, etc).
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Old 08-29-2004, 01:32 AM   #28
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I doubt that there is an "evil gene", at birth we are all born with infinite possibility, it is mostly environmental factors that shape our moral fibres.
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Old 08-29-2004, 11:22 AM   #29
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There was a very bad story here in Italy a few years ago. A 16 year old girl and her boyfriend killed the girl's mother and little brother.
The dad is keeping going to the jail where she is and keeps on seeing her.
I can't imgine how hard it is for him..

So I suppose that, in some cases, you just can't stop loving a person, even if you know that he did terrible things.
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