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Old 05-24-2006, 07:36 PM   #61
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
Even the theory of evolution creates a hierarchy. Guess who's on top.
Really?

Ever been lost in a jungle or swimming off the coast of South Africa?

Feeling hunted is a humbling experience, you should try it.

I don't care what your biology professor told you, whatever "hierarchy" you learned in school is purely circumstantial.
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Old 05-24-2006, 08:20 PM   #62
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Is there an establish convention for "humane vendors of chicken"?
Not that I know of, but there are a group of People who believe in the Ethical Treatment of Animals.
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Old 05-24-2006, 08:33 PM   #63
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Even the theory of evolution creates a hierarchy. Guess who's on top.


note the word "theory" ...
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Old 05-24-2006, 08:44 PM   #64
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Good point, but evolution has nothing to do with animal rights.

Rights are a human construct, ultimately, but one which we should bestow, to a certain degree, upon animals.

The debate is to what degree. I'm more generous in this regard than most others in this world, I suppose, and not because I'm morally superior or a "better" person.

It probably derives from personal experiences growing up with various beloved pets which sensitized me to animal (or pet) feelings and personalities. (Being stalked by sharks didn't dissuade me from these thoughts, either, and neither does name-calling from Rush Limbaugh's fans).
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Old 05-24-2006, 10:33 PM   #65
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note the word "theory" ...
The conventional (and proper) term is theory of evolution.

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Old 05-24-2006, 10:39 PM   #66
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We've come this far and no one has mentioned the "save the chickens/USA for Africa" skit from SNL ??
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Old 05-24-2006, 10:43 PM   #67
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Even the theory of evolution creates a hierarchy. Guess who's on top.
Evolution is not a progressive system. Human beings cannot outcompete sulphur fixing bacteria in anoxic environments.
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Old 05-24-2006, 10:47 PM   #68
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Hey, did any of you ever see that "save the chickens/USA for Africa" skit from SNL?

Damn funny, you should download it.
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Old 05-24-2006, 10:55 PM   #69
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Evolution is not a progressive system. Human beings cannot outcompete sulphur fixing bacteria in anoxic environments.
OK - then we should eat fried sulphur fixing bacteria!
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Old 05-24-2006, 11:14 PM   #70
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OK - then we should eat fried sulphur fixing bacteria!

I think some of that was in the burrito I just ate
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Old 05-24-2006, 11:22 PM   #71
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Just pointing out the concept of the ecological niche, when a species can occupy a specific habitat very well and outcompete other species for the resources without too much trouble there are no strong pressures that select for new forms - that is those bacteria at hydrothermal vents on the sea floor probably havent changed much in a billion years because they are so well suited to their niche. The bacteria can exploit the environment superbly.

Of course this is not always so, you have background extinction rates and environmental changes going on all the time, these changes can lead to pressures that ultimately select for adapted forms. The tree of life concept with a heirachy of kingdoms and phyla and placing certain groups as superior to others is a very anthropocentric and victorian construction of the natural world. To study it properly requires a measure of objectivity and that includes dumping asusmptions about inherent species superiority, or for that matter sub-species superiority.

Humanity has utilised animals as the basis of civilisation; domestication has yielded the best possible livestock for food, work and hunting (e.g. dogs). To turn around and demand that animals should be imbued with rights similar to that of human beings is detrimental ~ I happen to think that modern medicine (which is dependent on animal testing) is a very good thing - and I don't bloody care how many rats and monkeys died so that I or someone I love can get the best possible treatment for disease. I am very fond of meat, it is packed with what human bodies need (of course not to excess ~ we should uphold our omnivorous heritage if only for health reasons) - mass production of livestock as a means to ensure that the population isn't malnourished has been beneficial to mankind (although the extreme of this with the obesity epidemic and associated health complications should be considered, diseases of excess which are preventable if people took better care of themselves, are better than the other extreme).

I don't agree with mistreating animals, they should live lives with as little suffering as possible (dumping chickens in ice water before slicing their heads off with a buzzsaw is part of this) but killing an animal is killing an animal, hunting one down and killing it is just as if not more violent than quickly stunning and slicing apart it's central nervous system (and for that matter kinder than rabbit traps). I wont even go to deeply into the issue of what constitutes an appealing animal from an animal rights perspective, needless to say they are inherently furry or feathered - nobody seems to stamp pictures of fish or insects on their campaign posters.

When PETA talks about animal liberation they are also attacking your right to look after beloved family pets, they are attacking the research institutions and researchers that ensure that you have a high quality of life, they are attacking the durable boots that people wear and the jackets that keep the cold out so very well.

Ignoring them and not answering those charges allows them to set the frames of the debate, you cannot make them go away by ignoring them and allowing their crap to go unanswered.
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Old 05-25-2006, 12:27 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




note the word "theory" ...
Yes, it is a scientific theory, that is a factual statement.

Rather than argue about the definition of theory we should introduce the principle of the hypothesis.
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Old 05-25-2006, 12:30 AM   #73
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


Is animal cruelty bad? Yes.

Is it a priority over human suffering? No.

If you have $200 to donate to a charity, is PETA more worthy than a cancer, AIDS, hunger, poverty, etc. charity?

PETA would like you to think so. And their paid fundraisers.
Dude, I really dont know if you like being a lawyer who avoids answering something directly (a more straightforward question there cannot be) or if you like playing a wally. Either way, WITHOUT mentioning PETA (as was plainly asked, for cripes sake) do you reckon animal protection and anti cruelty should be a high priority for human beings? I dont want to hear about it versus cancer or about PETA or about KFC. Do you think (please) that it is abhorrent and humans should have a concerted and vested interest in protecting and caring for ALL animals? Is it an important topic for you personally? Maybe refer back to Noah, if you dont understand the gist of this point.

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Old 05-25-2006, 09:53 AM   #74
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Animals should be treated well. I don't like my veal saltimbocca too chewy.
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Old 05-25-2006, 10:09 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Yes, it is a scientific theory, that is a factual statement.

Rather than argue about the definition of theory we should introduce the principle of the hypothesis.


oh, i know, but most people in casual conversation would simply say "evolution" in the same way that they would say "plate tectonics."

i was merely pointing out the consistency of worldview, even though it's about a thread quite different from other threads that contain the word "evolution."
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