How much money do you need to be rich?

[WildHoneyAlways]

A breadth of living experience (by a couple of decades) has shown me evidence of this trend – having lived though the post college years and knowing young 20-somethings today. The experiences nathan1977 witnessed at the end of the 90’s were just as evident through the 80’s. I found it odd to say my observations were hugely presumptuous when I’ve experienced this personally.

I, too, believe your observations to be presumptuous. I don't know anyone, just out of college, who expected to make the same salary as someone with 10 years experience.

As I have pointed out, what nathan1977 experienced is not the same as what you are saying about 20 somethings.

 

[ntalwar]

Regarding the statement about the current "generation", the term "Entitlement Generation" has been used to describe them by some. I'm not sure I fully agree with it, but the term does exist.

Here's part of a newspaper article:

Now, deserved or not, this latest generation is being pegged, too — as one with shockingly high expectations for salary, job flexibility and duties but little willingness to take on grunt work or remain loyal to a company.

"We're seeing an epidemic of people who are having a hard time making the transition to work — kids who had too much success early in life and who've become accustomed to instant gratification," says Dr. Mel Levine, a pediatrics professor at the University of North Carolina Medical School and author of a book on the topic called "Ready or Not, Here Life Comes."

While Levine also notes that today's twentysomethings are long on idealism and altruism, "many of the individuals we see are heavily committed to something we call 'fun.'"

He partly faults coddling parents and colleges for doing little to prepare students for the realities of adulthood and setting the course for what many disillusioned twentysomethings are increasingly calling their "quarter-life crisis."

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/artic.../f102159D80.DTL&hw=entitlement&sn=001&sc=1000

 

[nbcrusader]

Again, perhaps not as presumptuous as you would want to believe. Thank you ntalwar for the missing phrase Entitlement Generation

For years, every generation of twenty-somethings has had nicknames. Generation X and Y come to mind. But the latest phenomenon is well-educated, well-financed and not eager to pay dues. Employers, sociologists and even the media have dubbed them "the entitlement generation."

They are images of desire, and they are everywhere. And many times they are expensive. In a world of instant communication and instant gratification, having it all can't wait. In the working world these people are known as the entitlement generation.

"Yes, there's an entitlement generation we are seeing a little bit more of," said Debbie Bougdanos.

A Google seach can provide plenty of similar observations.

 

[fly so high!]

When you have money left over after you have food on the table, filled the car up and payed the bills

 

[BonosSaint]

Every generation has been vilified by the previous generation(s).

"Generation X won't do things because they have a deep sense of mission, or loyalty to an organization. They have nothing but disdain for corporate politics and bureaucracy and don't trust any institution. They grew up watching their parents turn into workaholics, only to be downsized and restructured out of their chosen careers. They believe work is a thing you do to have a life (work doesn't define their life).

During the practice situations in our coaching workshops, the coach will often say-"Your behavior is affecting the company and if you don't change, we won't be in business in the long term." They raise the company flag and pull out the loyalty line. This means nothing to Xers-it will not capture their interest, raise their awareness, or stir them to new thoughts, feelings, and actions.

Xers have no expectation of job security, so they tend to see every job as temporary and every company as a stepping stone to something better, or at least to something else. They have been accused of not wanting to pay their dues. But, in today's changing workplace, anyone who is thinking about doing a job long enough to pay dues is out of touch!

Because they won't put in long hours at what they mostly term "dead end" jobs (Douglas Coupland coined the term "Mcjobs,") and they don't exhibit the same loyalty as Boomers do towards an organization, they have been called slackers."

--from "Coaching Generation X" by Terri Nagle
(This is actually an article on how to approach
Generation X by their strengths, but it gives an
idea of the view of the Xers)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are too many references to baby boomers on the net so I could not find a specific article. But being a boomer, I know we were the beatnik, hippie, hedonistic, only out for themselves, new agey, protesting, ungrateful generation.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Silent Generation
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The name Silent Generation was coined in the November 5, 1951 cover story of Time to refer to the generation coming of age at the time. The phrase gained further currency after William Manchester's comment that the members of this generation were "withdrawn, cautious, unimaginative, indifferent, unadventurous and silent." The name was used by Strauss and Howe in their book Generations as their designation for that generation in the United States of America born from 1925 to 1942. The generation is also known as the Postwar Generation and the Seekers, when it is not neglected altogether and placed by marketers in the same category as the G.I., or "Greatest", Generation. In England they were named the Air Raid Generation as children growing up amidst the crossfire of World War II."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(I'll skip the GI generation--Greatest Generation, if you will as I could not find elder views on when that generation was coming of age)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"An Open Letter from a Flapper

by Ellen Welles Page, Outlook Magazine, Dec. 6, 1922" (found on various sources)

" I want to beg all you parents, and grandparents, and friends, and teachers, and preachers--you who constitute the "older generation"--to overlook our shortcomings, at least for the present, and to appreciate our virtues. I wonder if it ever occurred to any of you that it required brains to become and remain a successful flapper? Indeed it does! It requires an enormous amount of cleverness and energy to keep going at the proper pace. It requires self- knowledge and self analysis. We must know our capabilities and limitations. We must be constantly on the alert. Attainment of flapperhood is a big and serious undertaking!

"Brains?" you repeat, skeptically."Then why aren't they used to better advantage?" That is exactly it! And do you know who is largely responsible for all this energy's being spent in the wrong directions? You! You parents, and grandparents, and friends, and teachers, and preachers--all of you! "The war!" you cry. "It is the effect of the war!" And then you blame prohibition. Yes! Yet it is you who set the example there! But this is my point: Instead of helping us work out our problems with constructive, sympathetic thinking and acting, you have muddled them for us more hopelessly with destructive public condemnation and denunciation."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And you know that when we finish translation all the hieroglyphics and cave drawings, a good percentage of them will have been complaints about their kids.

 

[sulawesigirl4]

First off, I've been away from the blue crack for quite some time, so hello again to all those of you I know and to those of you I don't.

This topic is of particular interest to me as I recently served two years in the Peace Corps in Mali, West Africa. It's one of the 5 poorest countries in the world, but you'd be hard pressed to find a place where the people are more generous and hospitable. Sharing what little you have is part of the culture and you'll hear many a Malian shrug and say, "we may be poor but we have a rich culture." Does that mean they don't want the luxury items and the bling that we have? Of course not! But priorities like having food to feed the family, rain for the crops, medicine against killers like malaria and enough money to make ends meet are primary. What always amazed me while living there was the ethic of generousity that prevails. I'd daily see people pay the fare for a complete stranger on the public transport bus, just because the person was elderly or a mother with a baby or maybe just because they had struck up a conversation during the ride. Complete strangers will invite you to come and share their meals if you walk by the community bowl and they're very happy if you actually take them up on the offer.

And it's not all about money or material things. People are very open and friendly and share themselves. It has really struck me in returning to the US in how most of us are in our own protective bubble. We don't talk or smile at strangers or strike up conversations with them unprovoked. In Mali, it is unthinkable to sit next to someone on a bus or buy something from someone without at least going through a formal greeting ritual and starting some sort of conversation. It makes me wonder if being rich monetarily means closing oneself off to the possibility of being connected to others. We don't need them and we don't want them to need us. So we stay safe and we stay isolated.

My boyfriend is from Mali, and he recently returned with me to the USA to go to college. This is a huge opportunity for him, and it's been interesting to see him adjust to life here. One of the first observations he made upon arrival was that "there are so many cars and they are all brand new!" He has since remarked many times that there is just so MUCH stuff that it seems excessive. When we go shopping, while I'm likely to buy things on a whim or because I'm being sucked in by a slick packaging/marketing ploy, he'll look at the price and convince me that it's not a necessity. Many a time when I want to go out and blow money just to amuse myself or to celebrate the end of a workweek, he'll talk me out of it. "We just spent $50 on groceries and if we go to a restaurant we'll spend $20 on food we could have made for $5!" It's made for an interesting dynamic and while sometimes it frustrates me, I think he's bringing a very good balance and perspective to my life.

One thing that I have always noticed in my life of travel and life overseas is that I always manage to live comfortably on very little when I'm over "there" but when I'm back "here" I slowly buy into the myth that my "wants" are actually "needs." Maybe it is because of advertising or maybe it's because there is just too many products out there. I personally think it's boredom. In any case, I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's all relative and that most Americans are richer than many people living across the world would ever hope to be in their lives. I don't say that to guilt you, but I do think that with this economic power comes responsibility and I'm not convinced that we live up to that.

Those are my ramblings for what they're worth. Nice to be back in FYM.

-sula

 

[nbcrusader]

Welcome back!!!!

 

[Westport]

The correct answer is 10 million dollars after tax.

That way you can generate a few hundred thousand a year tax free in municipal bonds without ever touching the principal. You won't ever have to work again and will still have a few million left to invest in any way that you would like.

 

[maycocksean]

Sulawesigirl4 and Bonosaint, thanks for the perspective. Both of your replies gave a slightly different take on this topic, and I really appreciated it.

Sula, I know what you mean. My home in Saipan is much closer to the U.S. in terms of it's standard of living than it is to Mali, but even there I've seen the difference in people's openness and willingness to share.

 

[Irvine511]

A Google seach can provide plenty of similar observations.

it's hugely presumptuous to assume that a few anecdotal, convenient experiences speak for millions, especialy when you are not a member of the age group that you are criticizing, and Nathan pointed out a diversity in expectations and opinions, though you've allowed only one observation to speak for the whole.

perhaps these threads should be revisited as a way to round things out:

http://forum.interference.com/showt...ht=i+am+an+individual+before+i+am+an+american

http://forum.interference.com/showthread.php?threadid=154963&highlight=kids+today

[q]A Google seach can provide plenty of similar observations.[/q]


and much like Bono, Google says a lot of things.

 

[nbcrusader]

I hope it is not presumptuous to expect all FYM arguments to avoid use of a few anecdotal, convenient experiences as evidence – it sounds like a good principle to follow. Though I am not quite sure why that point was raised here.

 

[Irvine511]

I hope it is not presumptuous to expect all FYM arguments to avoid use of a few anecdotal, convenient experiences as evidence – it sounds like a good principle to follow. Though I am not quite sure why that point was raised here.

well, when you slam a generation of people on the basis of anecdotal evidence -- and the pieces you pointed to brought up notions of "entitlement," which i might agree with, and not demands to be paid the same as someone 20 years their senior -- i think it's presumptous to expect that such a statement would go unchallenged especially when anecdotal, convenient experiences formulate the entire justification for charge.

 

[nbcrusader]

Methinks thou doth protest too much

 

[silja]

Originally posted by sulawesigirl4
And it's not all about money or material things. People are very open and friendly and share themselves. It has really struck me in returning to the US in how most of us are in our own protective bubble. We don't talk or smile at strangers or strike up conversations with them unprovoked. In Mali, it is unthinkable to sit next to someone on a bus or buy something from someone without at least going through a formal greeting ritual and starting some sort of conversation. It makes me wonder if being rich monetarily means closing oneself off to the possibility of being connected to others. We don't need them and we don't want them to need us. So we stay safe and we stay isolated.

Thank you for sharing your experiences. In some ways I agree, but about 10 years ago I travelled in some of the poorest and most destitute regions of Russia and I did not encounter the openness and warmth that a simple connection between poverty and friendliness towards strangers would suggests. It’s also about culture and to a certain extent climate.

 

[Irvine511]

Methinks thou doth protest too much

i'm going to remember that line the next time we get a good THEOCRACY WATCH thread going ...

 

[nbcrusader]

Texas School District Bans Grillz

The school district here has expanded its dress codes to include mouths _ and earlobes.

Students may no longer wear mouth jewelry known as "grillz" _ shiny teeth caps _ or the earlobe-stretching practice known as "gauging."

"The district is having to respond to fads because they've become distracters or a safety hazard for those around them," said Malcolm Turner, the district's executive director of student services.

I read this article and then re-read sulawesigirl4’s post giving a greater (and much needed) perspective on the subject of wealth. It seems that our great wealth will allow us to bicker over things such as “grillz”.

 

[sulawesigirl4]

Welcome back!!!!

Thanks. Looking around the old place, it looks like nothing has changed. lol.

Sulawesigirl4 and Bonosaint, thanks for the perspective. Both of your replies gave a slightly different take on this topic, and I really appreciated it.

Sula, I know what you mean. My home in Saipan is much closer to the U.S. in terms of it's standard of living than it is to Mali, but even there I've seen the difference in people's openness and willingness to share.

I'm glad you liked the post, even though in retrospect I wondered if it was a bit off the original topic. This idea of wealth and how much we need to make us happy is an issue that is never far from my thoughts. Having grown up in a jungle village in Indonesia (missionary parents) and now spending parts of my life back and forth between the States and the rest of the world, I can't escape the comparisons between the luxury we take for granted and the poverty that is so pervasive elsewhere.

I'm curious to hear more about Saipan, as I think you're the first person I've met to be from there. Did you grow up there? How big of a country is it and what is the dominant way of making a living ie. agriculture, manufacturing, etc?

Thank you for sharing your experiences. In some ways I agree, but about 10 years ago I travelled in some of the poorest and most destitute regions of Russia and I did not encounter the openness and warmth that a simple connection between poverty and friendliness towards strangers would suggests. It’s also about culture and to a certain extent climate.

You are of course correct that one can't make a simple coorelation betwen lack of possessions and openness towards strangers. As you noted, culture plays a great role. I wonder though if the fact that the Russia you visited was emerging from 70-odd years of communist rule had anything to do with the lack of warmth. I don't set myself up to be any kind of an expert in Russia and East Asia, but I would be curious to know if traditional "Russian" country values are more or less open and hospitable than what you experienced. I would imagine that living in a police state in which one couldn't trust even one's neighbor would have a rather chilling effect on the way one views outsiders.

In any case, interesting thread. I really hope that everyone who has been so amazingly blessed to have all their material needs met will take a moment to really think about what they can do to be "good caretakers" of what they've been given. I don't think it's about being guilty for what we have but in using it wisely and even reverently and not taking it for granted.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I really enjoyed reading your post and your perspective sula, I hope you can post more often

 

[coemgen]

I've heard way too many stories of unhappy rich people or rich people in trouble of some kind. It seems like rich people are actually poor in other areas of life. I'd rather focus on those areas before I worry about the amount of money I have. My bank account is going to fluctuate, but I have a lifetime of relationships to focus on and other things. I've heard it said that wisdom is more precious than gold. Hopefully, I can get more of that.

 

[Irvine511]

i suppose the only problem i have with measuring wealth through non-tangible items ("can't see it, or buy it") is that most of us have our basic needs more than met.

it's awfully easy to say that money doesn't make you happy when you have clean drinking water.

if i didn't have clean drinking water (or a good pair of shoes) i'd certainly be unhappy.

 

[maycocksean]

if i didn't have clean drinking water (or a good pair of shoes) i'd certainly be unhappy.

Or, maybe. . .just maybe you would. Rather than argue that you must have your basic needs met to be happy, I'd argue that happiness is irrelevant in such situations. Even the so-called "happy poor" definitely want to change their situation, and someone who doesn't have clean drinking water is not going to live long or healthily unless their circumstances change, regardless of how "happy" they are.

I'm sure you'll agree that we don't combat poverty, disease, etc because "the people are unhappy", we combat them because it increases the length and quality of their lives.

eh. . .something tells me this is kind of a lame argument, so feel free to smash it down. I don't think I'm expressing myself very well.

 

[Irvine511]

Or, maybe. . .just maybe you would. Rather than argue that you must have your basic needs met to be happy, I'd argue that happiness is irrelevant in such situations. Even the so-called "happy poor" definitely want to change their situation, and someone who doesn't have clean drinking water is not going to live long or healthily unless their circumstances change, regardless of how "happy" they are.

I'm sure you'll agree that we don't combat poverty, disease, etc because "the people are unhappy", we combat them because it increases the length and quality of their lives.

eh. . .something tells me this is kind of a lame argument, so feel free to smash it down. I don't think I'm expressing myself very well.

^

it's okay, i get what you are saying -- i think that what we understand as "happiness" is irrelevant to some people, but i also think it can't even begin to be considered until a basic level of needs -- food, water, basic sanitation -- are met.

if i have a longer, higher quality of life, i think i'd be happier.

 

[maycocksean]

^

it's okay, i get what you are saying -- i think that what we understand as "happiness" is irrelevant to some people, but i also think it can't even begin to be considered until a basic level of needs -- food, water, basic sanitation -- are met.

if i have a longer, higher quality of life, i think i'd be happier.

Yeah, the basic needs have to be met. Just because people, amazingly manage to put on a smile and show some grace In SPITE OF horrifying circumstances doesn't mean those horrifying circumstances no longer need to be remedied.

 

[nbcrusader]

I really appreciate your perspectives and willingness to share your experiences Sula. Given the great disparity in wealth across the world, it seems as if we have become so accustom to the conveniences, niceties or wants being satisfied, that we can’t imagine how people live without our lifestyle.

Maycocksean, your description is far from being lame. A close friend of mine is currently in India as part of a ministry to bring clean drinking water to the Dalit population. He has never seen his work as a key factor in bringing happiness to people, just a responsibility. But your comment is well noted that our own happiness is not truly conditioned on our circumstances – it is based on our response.

 

[silja]

Interesting:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/5169448.stm

It seems that we might be onto something in this thread

 

[nbcrusader]

I bet the people of Vanuatu do not have a word for “bad hair day”.

 

[Angela Harlem]

i suppose the only problem i have with measuring wealth through non-tangible items ("can't see it, or buy it") is that most of us have our basic needs more than met.

how many americans can afford health cover? i mean, really. just how bare-bones do you want to get?

 

[Irvine511]

how many americans can afford health cover? i mean, really. just how bare-bones do you want to get?

there are 40m uninsured Americans, which is a crime, imho. but virtually all americans have food and drinking water and, yes, if you are hit by a car you will be treated at the hospital, insured or not.

i'm not sure what you're getting at here ...

 

[maycocksean]

"index builds on a report that Nef published earlier this year that warned if annual global consumption levels matched the UK's, it would take 3.1 Earths to meet the demand. " (from the last sentence of silja's bbc link).

oooh. . ..this seems to imply that the world can't support the entire earth's population rising to our western standard of living! Which is not to argue for extreme poverty, mind you, but it does seem to question whether some parts of the world will out of necessity have to have a markedly simpler life in order for other parts of the world to have consumeristic excess that they do.