How much jail time for women who have abortions?

[deep]

Nonsense. Pro-choice means the woman who is pregnant makes the choice. For your analogy to work, the convict would make the choice.

how so?
the woman's life is not being ended.

 

[Infinity]

Well this is how it works...killing a guilty murderer is just, killing an innocent unborn child is not. On the surface it seems odd, to be so anti-murder in one scenario but quick to kill in the other, but really it's the guilt or innocence that drives it.

I see what you are saying but I still think the death penalty is wrong for several reasons.

1) There is always the chance that the person being killed by the death penalty is actually innocent or that there was some flaw in the case or some new evidence is found or that the defense attorney was no good or the jury was biased, etc. I can't think of something more horrible then being killed by the government for something I didn't do or becuase of a flawed case or jury.

Now someone may say that "oh there have only been about 10 examples of this scenario in the last 100 years so its not that common." Well my answer to that is that so what? What if YOU were one of those 10 people?

My point is that the whole criminal justice system is run by humans, and humans aren't perfect. Therefore they can make mistakes in trials. Humans can also be greedy so who knows if the jury or the prosecution or even the defense attorney cheated in the case. At least if the crimanls are put in prison and later found innocent, they have a chance to life again. By killing them they are gone forever, its just not right.


2) I'm also against the death penalty because I don't believe in eye for an eye. What good is killing them going to do? We can put them in a maximum security prison for life and they won't ever cause any problems again. But by killing them we are just doing to the murderers what they did to other people, I don't believe its right. Its like saying, what if someone was put in prison for sexually molesting someone else. Would it be right to sexually molest them? I know it sounds silly, but its a good analogy.



What I don't get about the current President is that he claims to be a devoted Christian and he is against abortion for religious reasons but then he happens to be pro-death penalty. I don't get it at all. I don't think Christianity is pro-death penalty.

 

[Butterscotch]

Uhm, could you not use the phrase PRO ABORTION since it is not what a pro CHOICE person is?

That's exactly what a pro abortion person is. Pro choice doesn't make any sense, because you don't support all choices, only the choice for an abortion. So pro abortion is the right term. It means you are in favor of people getting them if they feel like it.

I agree with you that pro life is a sickening term. This is why I go with pro or anti abortion because that is what is being discussed. No need to muddle the subject with niceties.

 

[martha]

That's exactly what a pro abortion person is. Pro choice doesn't make any sense, because if you don't support all choices, only the choice for an abortion.

Pardon me, but you're full of shit. I'm pro-choice---I don't force women to have abortions. I support decisions to have children and I support decisions not to have them.

You are anti-choice.

 

[Vincent Vega]

Most people aren't in favor of it because someone "feels like it", which also is hardly the case, but for other reasons.
Often they aren't in favor of abortion on demand, but for social, health, or other more serious reasons.

If he killed one person in the heat of anger, lock him up for life, but if he molested and tortured 18 kids to death, dismembered their bodies and kept parts in the freezer, that fuck does not deserve to breathe or even eat bread.

It's quite interesting that this argument is often done by picturing one very extreme case, when so many people put to death in fact weren't really that brutal monsters.

 

[martha]

how so?
the woman's life is not being ended.

Go back nd reread your analogy. The person whose body it is is making the choice.

But maybe it works for you; the jury makes the choice for the convict and a panel of strangers makes the choice for the pregnant woman.

 

[deep]

Why dance around it

and let abortion prohibitionist paint you into a corner?

If I support abortion being an option
then I am in favor of abortion

and I can handle being called

pro-abortion



when I was in favor of capital punishment being legal
(I now am 100% anti-death penalty, under any circumstance, btw.)

I did not dance around it by
saying
I really find it distasteful
and I would never be an executioner, or demand it be used.
But, If some people want it to be an option,
than I support death penalty

please don't call me pro-death penalty

 

[bonocrazy88]

I don't think i've ever met a person whos against abortion who is not religious. And thats the crux. There is no scientific evidence that its murder, or painful, or anything like that, there are rules and regulations like before 12 weeks and so on, and it seems that only the factr that RELIGION gets in the way of peoples beliefs that it all goes screwy.

We're not a religous country, we shouldn't let some "beliefs" and i hold those ideas VERY loosely change something they have nothing to do with

I am not religious, but I don't agree with abortion. I only think it should remain legal in the US because not everyone shares my belief and it's a safer alternative than other methods. BUT, I honestly do see life as conception. It may seem outdated and religious, but I don't follow a monotheistic religion at all. I don't view myself as Christian, but I definitely feel like if the child has begun to grow inside, it's there to stay, no matter what it looks like or how it's the same as every mammal fetus or all those arguments about pain receptors and "life beginning after...."

But, being liberal minded, I UNDERSTAND the pro-abortion argument. I cannot call myself pro-life or pro-choice simply because they are too vague to explain the nuances of how I feel about the subject. It's so complicated for me.

And I am not dancing around the fact that I do not agree with abortion. But I still think it should be legal. So I agree that it should be a choice for women in this country, but I don't believe it makes it right for me. I honestly don't agree with it, but if someone I loved was going through it, I would support her through it. I support people, but ideas are confusing and they put people against each other. I know what I believe and that's really all that matters.

Individual opinion

 

[martha]

Why dance around it

and let abortion prohibitionist paint you into a corner?

If I support abortion being an option
then I am in favor of abortion

and I can handle being called

pro-abortion

There is a difference between being pro-abortion and pro-choice.

 

[martha]

Individual opinion

Individual opinion not dictating what others do. Double

 

[bonocrazy88]

Individual opinion not dictating what others do. Double

True. That's what I mean. I am pro-choice, but not pro-abortion. I am all for people doing what they feel is right.

 

[dazzlingamy]

but see i don't think you need to say im pro choice but not pro abortion.

I think pro abortion sounds like your a person that goes round to pregnant woman raving about the cost of a child and childcare and being all forceful and saying 'heeeeey come with me i'll take you to a nice clinic where you can get rid of that problem!' (hrm sounds like a pro life scenario in a way!)

This is how i see it. I'm pro choice. I want to live in a society where women have the right to choose when they get pregnant. We live in a sexualised society, people are off doing the hurly gurly with lots of people, some of them GASP they might not even know! So if that is whats going on (i have no problem with it!) then i believe there are no fail safe methods to not getting accidently pregnant.

I don't WANT women to have abortions, i love little babies and can't wait to have my own, but i want there to LEGALLY be a choice. Why would anyone want to keep a baby made with spermys from some guy you slept with drunk that you met at a nightclub. Why chain yourself to him and cause a LIFETIME of angst, because someone said you can't have an abortion because thats not gods plan waaaah!

Until there is scietific REAL proof that abortions are harmful and little fetues are forming a union to protest their treatment, then i am PRO CHOICE. Not pro WOOO for aobrtion, but PRO CHOICE.

I'm PRO CHOICE in a lot of areas, i think you should choose your life partner, i think anyone should be able to choose what job they can have, i think you should be able to choose what you eat where you shop where you live. I believe in CHOICE when it comes to religion,. You find it on your own, good for you, you're dragged to church and forced to be, shame on your parents...and so on

 

[bonocrazy88]

Well, words aside. I mean words are words. The nuances of words are endless. I don't care what it's called.

 

[dazzlingamy]

Yeah but sometimes certain words carry meanings that confuse. And i was sort or aiming my little rant at deep hehee about the right to choose

 

[AnnRKeyintheUSA]

I believe people on both sides should have the balls to call it what it really is, and not try to cloak it with terms that seem more comfortable. Don't be afraid of the word abortion, that is, after all, what you support. Whatever you believe just stand up for it.

 

[deep]

Yeah but sometimes certain words carry meanings that confuse. And i was sort or aiming my little rant at deep hehee about the right to choose

If I don't own guns

but believe in the right to choose to own guns or not to own guns



would you call me pro-gun?

or

pro choice? - because I believe in the right to choose to own guns or not?

let each citizen choose for themselves - do not ban gun ownership / or abortion /


is pro-choice the right term ?

Is there any chance of not allowing women the right to choose to carry a fetus full term and give birth.


So called pro-choice people are only in the debate to support the right to abortion

In any thing, you are pro-choice the right to choose abortion.


Now pro-choice in China, you would have a valid argument.

 

[martha]

So called pro-choice people are only in the debate to support the right to abortion

In any thing, you are pro-choice the right to choose abortion.

You've almost got it.

 

[CTU2fan]

If I don't own guns

but believe in the right to choose to own guns or not to own guns



would you call me pro-gun?

or

pro choice? - because I believe in the right to choose to own guns or not?

let each citizen choose for themselves - do not ban gun ownership / or abortion /


is pro-choice the right term ?

Is there any chance of not allowing women the right to choose to carry a fetus full term and give birth.


So called pro-choice people are only in the debate to support the right to abortion

In any thing, you are pro-choice the right to choose abortion.


Now pro-choice in China, you would have a valid argument.

What's interesting here is that many people who'd choose to call themselves "pro-choice" rather than pro-abortion would not hesitate to call someone who supported the right to own guns "pro-gun", whether that person owned guns or not.

 

[Varitek]

I'd say "pro-gun rights" but I wouldn't object to being called "pro-abortion rights" either. A lot of this posturing over names is about the terms of the debate - "pro choice" sounds as benignly good as "pro life," whereas "pro abortion" doesn't.

 

[Butterscotch]

I've noticed the term 'pro abortion rights' being used a lot in the campaigns of the presidential hopefuls. Unfortunately 'pro life' is still out there. I'd like to see both the 'life' and 'choice' shit dumped, they are indeed just comfort zones that need to be stripped off the issue. I don't see anything wrong with an anti-gun control person being called pro gun either. I look at it straight up if you support someone being able to get an abortion anytime they want one then you're pro abortion and if you support someone buying a gun anytime they want one then you're pro gun. If you got a problem with these labels, maybe you don't feel as confident of your position as you'd like to think if you have to change the name to something that makes you feel better.

 

[Butterscotch]

Oh and the gun thing brings up another contradiction of idealogy. Most gun control supporters are also abortion proponents. But by wanting to take away the right of the average citizen to buy a gun, doesn't that make the person 'anti choice'? You oppose the person's right to gun ownership, just as an anti abortionist opposes a person's choice of an abortion. So a person who is anti abortion but anti gun control may rightfully call the pro abortion, pro gun control person 'anti choice' and themselves 'pro choice' for supporting the right of gun ownership. So we have hypocrisy here. This is why we need to cut the crap and call a spade a spade.

 

[Vincent Vega]

if you support someone being able to get an abortion anytime they want one then you're pro abortion

Many people in favor of legalised abortion aren't for abortion on demand, i.e. "anytime you want", but for other reasons already listed here.

 

[Butterscotch]

Many people in favor of legalised abortion aren't for abortion on demand, i.e. "anytime you want", but for other reasons already listed here.

Duh. In my first post here I said I supported them for rape or health issues but not just because you 'change your mind' and don't want to deal with the kid anymore. So I don't consider myself pro or against or labeled in any way. Why do we have to have labels? We can't lump people like that because we're all different. The terms can even be devisive. No blankets on anybody!

 

[Vincent Vega]

Just wanted to stress that many people are campaigning for the rights to have an abortion, but aren't that positive about abortions on demand.

 

[deep]

pro- abortion rights may be the best term



also, most pro- gun rights people do not have problems with some controls, restrictions and even bans on some weapons

 

[martha]

Duh. In my first post here I said I supported them for rape or health issues

I'm gonna ask anyway. No one ever seems to able to answer, but what the hell.

How are you going to run the system so women who've been raped can opt to abort?

 

[CTU2fan]

Isn't it hypocritical to be "pro-life" and yet support abortions in cases that don't threaten the mother's life? I mean, if you're pro-life, what is it about a foetus that's a product of a rape that makes it less worthy than another?

 

[martha]

I mean, if you're pro-life, what is it about a foetus that's a product of a rape that makes it less worthy than another?

I really think that it's a way to keep the movement more mainstream. I remember a few decades ago, if you dug deep enough into the anti-chioce movement, most of the leaders were frighteningly anti-birth control. Many of them were men who truly believed that women should not be able to have any control over their reproductive systems at all, lest a potential baby be prevented.

This is one of the reasons I fight so hard here; so many people take this crap for granted and don't realize/remember/care how much control these people really think they should have. I'm sure many of today's "pro-life" folks don't have an real clue as to how controlling the leaders of these movements want to be. They carry their placards with dead fetuses, and they pray for the dead babies, thinking that if a woman (read: their sister) is raped, she'll still be able to make a decision. They don't truly understand what they're supporting.

Look at what happened in South Dakota. Those fools elected a "pro-life" legislature and got what they thought they wanted: an anti-abortion law that outlawed it in every single case. Every single case. They shit themsleves. I had no sympathy for them.

 

[dazzlingamy]

You shouldn't have the right to choose to have guns, there should be no guns at all in the hands of citizens. I'm not anti choice, im anti guns altogether. Guns kill other people, abortions kill nothing but a tiny blob of cells. They are miles apart and its silly trying to put them into context with each other.

 

[deep]

so you are anti-gun
for those that want to have guns

and pro-abortion
for those that want to have abortions