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Old 07-31-2007, 07:14 PM   #61
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Well there's not much of a question posed. If the state held a vote, then yeah most women would go to another state and it would eventually be overturned by the state supreme court. The majority isn't always right, that's the beauty of Democracy, it's designed to know that. That's where your argument fails.
Actually, depends on where you live. In Switzerland they held a plebiscit. 72.2 per cent were in favor of allowing abortion up to the twelfth week. Had they voted the other way round, it wouldn't be allowed.
In most other countries it's rather the majority of people in case of on demand abortion.
In other cases, like listed above, courts might overrule public opinion.

Hope I got you right.

Anyways, I have to get up early tomorrow and will go home for about two weeks, so it might take some time until I can respond again (probably tomorrow evening).
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Old 07-31-2007, 07:21 PM   #62
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Well, civic society can't be based on making up one's own rules.

For example, if I lived in a country were income is taxed at 30% and I feel that this tax rate is too high, it should only be 5%, would I be justified in demanding a special tax regime to suit myself? Most would say no, I would not be justified.
Income tax and abortion are two completely different issues. Abortion, as a choice, is simply yes or no. Taxes are a much different scenario. It's comparing apples and oranges.

This sounds a bit like an "all-or-none" type of post like I've seen from some people.

I'm talking about this issue specifically. I'm not inferring opening the door for all issues to be made up by someone. And I don't think it makes sense to infer that.
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Old 07-31-2007, 07:32 PM   #63
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Income tax and abortion are two completely different issues. Abortion, as a choice, is simply yes or no. Taxes are a much different scenario. It's comparing apples and oranges.

This sounds a bit like an "all-or-none" type of post like I've seen from some people.

I'm talking about this issue specifically. I'm not inferring opening the door for all issues to be made up by someone. And I don't think it makes sense to infer that.
So you're arguing that some issues are above and beyond the vulgarity of the ballot box and should as it were be left up to the conscience of the individual to decide. Well, are there any other rights apart from abortion rights that you'd ringfence in this manner?

'Cos a lot of people would argue that abortion rights shouldn't be deserving of this rather privileged position - particularly as we are talking about the extinction of life forms that have, at the very least, the potential to become human (as opposed to for example, the more prosaic sin of fiddling one's taxes, which isn't actually taking anyway from any individual rights or extinguishing any life).

Right to life trumps right to liberty, IMO.
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Old 07-31-2007, 07:39 PM   #64
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Originally posted by financeguy
Incidentally, to offer an Irish perspective, although thousands of women DO travel to the UK for abortions each year, the pro-choice lobby have recently discovered to their chagrin that the numbers have actually DECLINED in recent years (probably the result of better sex education, and more easily available and cheaper (relative to average incomes) contraceptives, both of which are of course good things).

One would think that both the pro-life and pro-choice lobbies would welcome this development but one gets the impression, oddly, that the pro-choice lobby here don't actually like this trend, they would much rather the numbers were higher as it would be grist to their mill.
actually i think that a decline in abortions is kinda cool. the surgery isn't an easy choice to make, and is painful both mentally and physically...at least that is what i learned from my friends who have had them. while i don't think i agree with a complete ban on abortions, i do support any efforts made to prevent spread of disease and unplanned pregnancies.

however, financeguy, i don't think that the majority of people in the pro-life movement in my country support better sex education and increased access to contraceptives. all the pro-lifers i've met practice some conservative form of religion, and would not see either of those as good things.

THAT'S one of the problems I have with the pro-life movement. i haven't met a single pro-lifer that wants to promote healthy safe sexual conduct. all they want is to ban abortion and for everyone to be abstinent.
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Old 07-31-2007, 07:44 PM   #65
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Originally posted by unico
however, financeguy, i don't think that the majority of people in the pro-life movement support better sex education and increased access to contraceptives. all the pro-lifers i've met practice some conservative form of religion, and would not see either of those as good things.

Well, if that's the case they are inconsistent fools, as amongst the best ways of reducing the incidence of abortion are surely better sex education and freely available contraceptives.
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Old 07-31-2007, 07:47 PM   #66
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Well, if that's the case they are inconsistent fools, as amongst the best ways of reducing the incidence of abortion are surely better sex education and freely available contraceptives.
Yes, the arguments of those are usually that they should be "good Christians" and all the problems will be solved.
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Old 07-31-2007, 07:54 PM   #67
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So you're arguing that some issues are above and beyond the vulgarity of the ballot box and should as it were be left up to the conscience of the individual to decide. Well, are there any other rights apart from abortion rights that you'd ringfence in this manner?

'Cos a lot of people would argue that abortion rights shouldn't be deserving of this rather privileged position - particularly as we are talking about the extinction of life forms that have, at the very least, the potential to become human (as opposed to for example, the more prosaic sin of fiddling one's taxes, which isn't actually taking anyway from any individual rights or extinguishing any life).

Right to life trumps right to liberty, IMO.
It's quite a tough issue for me. I haven't set my beliefs in stone. I think any religious argument, which is most of what you here in America, should be thrown out right away. That's what I was saying. I think there are legitimate arguments coming from your view, and I agree with them. It's a very tough issue. I personally do not believe anyone should have an abortion who doesn't need one. The evidence? Adopted children in this world who have thrived. Things work out for them. It is my opinion that abortion should only be given to those who need it medically or because they are pregnant without choice (i.e.: rape). However, the rape angle presents a problem. How can one prove they were raped? Even through court processes, there are issues with time, through delays and such.

The honest answer is that I really haven't formed a set opinion on the issue because of the problems. I think that there are situations where abortion is legitimate, but it's tough to put a finger on those. Thus, I think the choice angle works better than a ban with medical exceptions only. I think there should be more stipulations for things like rape, but determining those angles are tough, and I'm not sure how one would go about doing that.

The only issue I think shouldn't have anything to do with voting is gay rights. They should have the rights of everyone else when it comes to things like marriage. Discrimination in its entirely should be banned. Other than that, nothing comes to mind at the moment.
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Old 07-31-2007, 07:57 PM   #68
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Originally posted by financeguy



Well, if that's the case they are inconsistent fools, as amongst the best ways of reducing the incidence of abortion are surely better sex education and freely available contraceptives.
then you should come over and enlighten them! PLEASE. i'm tired of hearing their irrational demands.
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Old 07-31-2007, 09:09 PM   #69
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Originally posted by financeguy

Right to life trumps right to liberty, IMO.
Except in rape...then suddenly that life isn't really life after all.
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Old 07-31-2007, 09:35 PM   #70
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Originally posted by financeguy



Well, if that's the case they are inconsistent fools, as amongst the best ways of reducing the incidence of abortion are surely better sex education and freely available contraceptives.
Hence why it's not the black and white issue you paint it out to be.
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Old 07-31-2007, 09:38 PM   #71
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So are you in favour of the overturning or neutralising of the wishes of the public by an interventionist judiciary?
No, I'm saying democracy is designed so that what the majority wants isn't always what's best for the country.

You going to support slavery if all of a sudden it gets a majority vote?
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Old 07-31-2007, 10:04 PM   #72
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Financeguy: "right to life trumps right to liberty'

And then, you have the scary idea of what to do with a mother whose mind is traumatized by being forced to carry a child of her rapist. This kind of thing isn't easy. As much as I dislike the idea of abortion, I'd rather not make another woman go through that. Because until the baby can breathe on its own, and can be taken care of by someone else, it really doesn't have much of a life, anyway. Its very existence is dependent on the mother.
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Old 08-01-2007, 05:30 AM   #73
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Originally posted by financeguy



Well, if that's the case they are inconsistent fools, as amongst the best ways of reducing the incidence of abortion are surely better sex education and freely available contraceptives.
One thing I gotta say I love about you. . .

You can't be pigeonholed.

A non-religious pro-lifer! I love surprises like that.
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Old 08-01-2007, 05:56 AM   #74
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Originally posted by financeguy


No jail time for women who have abortions, but professional misconduct charges, consfication by the State of income derived from performing abortions and possible jail time for repeat offenders for doctors that perform abortions.

Incidentally haven't some states in the US already acceded to the wishes of the majority of the electorate in those states by effectively banning abortion?

I agree that this is where the criminality would come in most likely, and I'd add that women will still have abortions, and could face some legal consequences too, at least they should. How can an act be illegal that takes two parties -- one performing the act, one recieving the act by choice - in fact paying for it -- and only one of them gets punished?

My problem on this issues is that the legal system will then revert to reflecting socio-economic status: women of means that have access to privacy, doctors and "hush-hush" will be able to get abortions - it'll cost more, but they'll find a way.

Women without means will not be able to get them due to price or access, and could revert to coat hangers or worse.

We should be more careful here in the US about laws where the practical consequences reinforce our social structures -- were all supposed to be treated by 'the law' equally.

A few other thoughts:
Women should dominate the abortion dialog, not men - if men got pregnant, Congress would probably make them easier to get than Big Macs given the demographics of the US House and Senate.

I don't think conservatives really want this debate to end with any closure -- if it does, they and the GOP have one less lightening rod to stir up their base and get folks out to vote.

Men should be held much more accountable legally than they are today; and it surprises me that women have not galvanized around this point on this issue in the US. Ladies, what's up -- why have you not forced more of the debate to focus on men in the US? Perhaps its too private of a matter; but I'd serioiusly like to know.

In the US we spend a lot of human energy and effort wrestling with this issue -- it would be nice to find a compromise and give it a ten or twenty year rest and put the same energy into some other issues for awhile.
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Old 08-01-2007, 06:43 AM   #75
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I see where you might be coming from in saying women should dominate the dialogue, however, that takes even more responsibility away from men. This might sound like hypocrisy - a big argument for women is it is our bodies. However, it is equally the responsibility of men and women whose actions result in a possible abortion. You men cannot get a woman pregnant and then only get an opinion and sense of responsibility once she reaches a decision to abort.
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