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Old 03-05-2004, 02:02 PM   #121
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
Well, it isn't an elite club and I am sorry you have had bad experiences with those who portray otherwise. Sinful pride remains because we are human.
Very true indeed.

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All I can do is describe what is revealed through Scripture. Obviously we will come to different conclusions if we base this on what we, as individuals, want heaven to be.
Yes. And we may have to wind up just agreeing to disagree. .

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If we get in anyway, it makes Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross for nothing. Scripture does not suggest that people have the luxury of rejecting Christ.
I thought he died for everyone's sins, non-believers' sins included (since not accepting Christ can be seen as a sin).

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You have a perfect Word with imperfect people. The schisms that exist within Christianity occurred from the earlist days.
Exactly, because each denomination saw their interpretation of the Word as the right one, and still sees it as such to this day. So how are we to know which one is right and which one is wrong?

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As you can imagine, Satan would prefer to divide and conquer and our sin nature has followed along.
Meh. I personally don't believe in Satan to begin with. But if that is true, then since God knew that Satan would try to do that, why didn't he stop him? It would've saved everybody a lot of confusion, endless fighting, and senseless death.

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Actually, God's prophcy does come true. It is validated within Scripture itself. I will be the first to say WE DON'T KNOW WHEN THIS WILL HAPPEN. I would caution you away from anyone who says otherwise. But as to the point of whether Jesus will returnor not, Scripture is clear that He will.
*Shrugs* If that's what it says, then that's what it says. I guess we'll all just have to wait and see.

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Actually, in Islam, non-muslims have NO chance of paradice.
I haven't heard anything about that before, but then again, like I said, I'm not an expert on the religion, I just go by what I've heard from the Muslim friend of mine, which isn't a whole heck of a lot.

Angela
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Old 03-05-2004, 02:10 PM   #122
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I thought he died for everyone's sins, non-believers' sins included (since not accepting Christ can be seen as a sin).
Just one note - rejection of Jesus Christ is the only sin that "sends you to hell".

Thanks for the excellent discussion!
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Old 03-05-2004, 02:16 PM   #123
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Mrs. Edge, the flawed nature of humanity is due to free will. Unless we have free will then we are automatons and our lives and devotion to God mean nothing. We would simply be puppets dancing on strings to amuse a cruel master. But free will allows that we will chose the evil as well as chose the good. Free will is required for being to be like God and thus be able to be in communion with him but it also makes it possible for them to reject him regardless of the cost to themselves or others.

As to those who have never heard the Word of God, refer back to my earlier post where I mentioned God's Grace though Christ acting in ways we do not understand. Who knows how it works I just trust that it does and that the God I know will not let anyone be left behind due to circumstance. And again there is the belief that Christ preached to the dead, and as death is timeless, all who have died or will die have an opportunity to meet him. Perhaps it is merely those of us who need reinforcement up here who are Christians in this life. I can't say how it all works. But I trust in God and I know in my heart that he is just. His actions may not always match our human notions of fairness but that is a result of our imperection and inability to see things as they truly are.

Mrs. Edge, you do have the disadvantage of not being exposed to God in your early life. However you have the opportunity now to seek him out. If you do not then I don't see how you can call him petty if you do not take the time to. That's not meant as a criticism as you are clearly seeking (otherwise you would not ask your questions or participate in these discussions), merely a challenge to your point. And besides the point is that Hitler could have been saved had he truly repented of his sins before he died. You have the same option, you can embrace God at any point in your life and it produces the sam effect. That doesn't sound fair but that's the fact. Though the added condition is that no one knows what the hour of their passing will be so it's not the cop out that it appears to be.
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Old 03-05-2004, 02:36 PM   #124
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Just one note - rejection of Jesus Christ is the only sin that "sends you to hell".
Ah. So if that's the case, why do some talk about all these other things that people could go to hell for?

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Thanks for the excellent discussion!
Anytime. . Good to hear things from other perspectives...this is a good thread.

Angela
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Old 03-05-2004, 02:43 PM   #125
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I appreciate your answer, Blacksword, and I do remember your mentioning this business about getting to meet Christ after you are dead. That addresses a huge concern, that's for sure. I think there is a difference between "not embracing" and outright "rejecting" of Christ. I am open minded enough to be convinced, but so far there have been too many frustrations and barriers and I can't be convinced until I can buy into the concepts.

As for the free choice thing, I think we actually ARE automatons/puppets. We basically have two choices 1) believe in Jesus and go to heaven or 2) don't and go to hell. When you think about it, most Christians would say that isn't a choice at all, there is only one choice, so that's what they do for fear of the repercussions!

I still think God should have come up with a better system where people were aware of him and therefore had no problem believing in him, yet still had free choice to behave a certain way while on earth.
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Old 03-05-2004, 02:47 PM   #126
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Christian is just a title, what is in your heart is what matters.

Exactly! It does not matter what may come out of your mouth, God KNOWS what is in your heart.

If you are on your death bed saying please forgive me I have sinned, but in your heart you are only saying those words out of fear of death and not repentance, God will know your true feelings. PERIOD.
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Old 03-05-2004, 03:34 PM   #127
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Again, we agree.
I am in no shape for debate, I am drugged up from the surgery. Peace...and I am glad we agree on something.

I have a question....do you believe the Holy Spirit is not present in everyone?
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Old 03-05-2004, 03:42 PM   #128
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Just one note - rejection of Jesus Christ is the only sin that "sends you to hell".

Thanks for the excellent discussion!
If someone is approached by a believer thats wants to witness to them and the approached person says I have no interest in what you are saying.

Well, have they rejected* and earned an eternity in darkness?
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Old 03-05-2004, 04:11 PM   #129
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I am in no shape for debate, I am drugged up from the surgery. Peace...and I am glad we agree on something.

I have a question....do you believe the Holy Spirit is not present in everyone?
First, all believers are indwelled with Holy Spirit.

Second, I believe the Holy Spirit works in the lives of non-believers - this is what causes us to search for God.

So, I cannot put any limitations on where the Holy Spirit goes, but I find nothing that suggests that all people are indwelled with the Holy Spirit.

Dread - praying for your swift recovery.
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Old 03-05-2004, 04:20 PM   #130
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First, all believers are indwelled with Holy Spirit.

Second, I believe the Holy Spirit works in the lives of non-believers - this is what causes us to search for God.

So, I cannot put any limitations on where the Holy Spirit goes, but I find nothing that suggests that all people are indwelled with the Holy Spirit.

Dread - praying for your swift recovery.
Thanks
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Old 03-05-2004, 06:16 PM   #131
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Martha, anyone who does evil is at that moment not in a proper relationship with Christ. They my say they are but they aren't. Unless they repent and live in Christ, calling on his name and giving themselves the title of Christian means nothing. You cannot truly belive in Christ and unrepentantly do evil. A evil mindset (where evil actions appear acceptable) means you are not in connection with Christ. If you justify these actions until your time of death, all the crosses, prayers (unless they are prayers of repentance) and church services in the world will not save you. It is one thing to profess to follow Christ and to belive in him it is another to actually do it. Christian is just a title, what is in your heart is what matters.
Another excellent post. It clears some things up for me.
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Old 03-05-2004, 06:17 PM   #132
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As for the free choice thing, I think we actually ARE automatons/puppets. We basically have two choices 1) believe in Jesus and go to heaven or 2) don't and go to hell.
According to Christians. Remember, most of the planet are not Christian.


We should talk.
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Old 03-05-2004, 06:56 PM   #133
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Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel
And if this grace is open to everyone, then I would think that even if somebody doesn't accept it now, because they have their reasons, God would therefore understand, and wouldn't automatically reject them because they weren't ready to accept it.




If we get in anyway, it makes Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross for nothing. Scripture does not suggest that people have the luxury of rejecting Christ.

Jesus' sacrifice was for mankind, not just Christians to be. I disagree, his sacrifice was ffor mankind's salvation. I have to agree 100% with Dreadsox. I see him as the bouncer at the door. All people of faith have a way in.
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Old 03-05-2004, 07:04 PM   #134
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All people of faith have a way in.
Faith in what?
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Old 03-05-2004, 09:23 PM   #135
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Jesus' sacrifice was for mankind, not just Christians to be. I disagree, his sacrifice was ffor mankind's salvation. I have to agree 100% with Dreadsox. I see him as the bouncer at the door. All people of faith have a way in.
.

Quote:
Originally posted by Mrs. Edge
I appreciate your answer, Blacksword, and I do remember your mentioning this business about getting to meet Christ after you are dead. That addresses a huge concern, that's for sure. I think there is a difference between "not embracing" and outright "rejecting" of Christ. I am open minded enough to be convinced, but so far there have been too many frustrations and barriers and I can't be convinced until I can buy into the concepts.
Nicely said. . I feel there's a higher being out there...but it would definitely be nice to break through the barriers and frustrations and stuff like that, that way I can be completely convinced.

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I still think God should have come up with a better system where people were aware of him and therefore had no problem believing in him, yet still had free choice to behave a certain way while on earth.
Exactly.

Angela
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