How good do you think you have to be to get into heaven?

[Moonlit_Angel]

Well, it isn't an elite club and I am sorry you have had bad experiences with those who portray otherwise. Sinful pride remains because we are human.

Very true indeed.

Originally posted by nbcrusader
All I can do is describe what is revealed through Scripture. Obviously we will come to different conclusions if we base this on what we, as individuals, want heaven to be.

Yes. And we may have to wind up just agreeing to disagree. .

Originally posted by nbcrusader
If we get in anyway, it makes Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross for nothing. Scripture does not suggest that people have the luxury of rejecting Christ.

I thought he died for everyone's sins, non-believers' sins included (since not accepting Christ can be seen as a sin).

Originally posted by nbcrusader
You have a perfect Word with imperfect people. The schisms that exist within Christianity occurred from the earlist days.

Exactly, because each denomination saw their interpretation of the Word as the right one, and still sees it as such to this day. So how are we to know which one is right and which one is wrong?

Originally posted by nbcrusader
As you can imagine, Satan would prefer to divide and conquer and our sin nature has followed along.

Meh. I personally don't believe in Satan to begin with. But if that is true, then since God knew that Satan would try to do that, why didn't he stop him? It would've saved everybody a lot of confusion, endless fighting, and senseless death.

Originally posted by nbcrusader
Actually, God's prophcy does come true. It is validated within Scripture itself. I will be the first to say WE DON'T KNOW WHEN THIS WILL HAPPEN. I would caution you away from anyone who says otherwise. But as to the point of whether Jesus will returnor not, Scripture is clear that He will.

*Shrugs* If that's what it says, then that's what it says. I guess we'll all just have to wait and see.

Originally posted by nbcrusader
Actually, in Islam, non-muslims have NO chance of paradice.

I haven't heard anything about that before, but then again, like I said, I'm not an expert on the religion, I just go by what I've heard from the Muslim friend of mine, which isn't a whole heck of a lot.

Angela

 

[nbcrusader]

I thought he died for everyone's sins, non-believers' sins included (since not accepting Christ can be seen as a sin).

Just one note - rejection of Jesus Christ is the only sin that "sends you to hell".

Thanks for the excellent discussion!

 

[Blacksword]

Mrs. Edge, the flawed nature of humanity is due to free will. Unless we have free will then we are automatons and our lives and devotion to God mean nothing. We would simply be puppets dancing on strings to amuse a cruel master. But free will allows that we will chose the evil as well as chose the good. Free will is required for being to be like God and thus be able to be in communion with him but it also makes it possible for them to reject him regardless of the cost to themselves or others.

As to those who have never heard the Word of God, refer back to my earlier post where I mentioned God's Grace though Christ acting in ways we do not understand. Who knows how it works I just trust that it does and that the God I know will not let anyone be left behind due to circumstance. And again there is the belief that Christ preached to the dead, and as death is timeless, all who have died or will die have an opportunity to meet him. Perhaps it is merely those of us who need reinforcement up here who are Christians in this life. I can't say how it all works. But I trust in God and I know in my heart that he is just. His actions may not always match our human notions of fairness but that is a result of our imperection and inability to see things as they truly are.

Mrs. Edge, you do have the disadvantage of not being exposed to God in your early life. However you have the opportunity now to seek him out. If you do not then I don't see how you can call him petty if you do not take the time to. That's not meant as a criticism as you are clearly seeking (otherwise you would not ask your questions or participate in these discussions), merely a challenge to your point. And besides the point is that Hitler could have been saved had he truly repented of his sins before he died. You have the same option, you can embrace God at any point in your life and it produces the sam effect. That doesn't sound fair but that's the fact. Though the added condition is that no one knows what the hour of their passing will be so it's not the cop out that it appears to be.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Just one note - rejection of Jesus Christ is the only sin that "sends you to hell".

Ah. So if that's the case, why do some talk about all these other things that people could go to hell for?

Originally posted by nbcrusader
Thanks for the excellent discussion!

Anytime. . Good to hear things from other perspectives...this is a good thread.

Angela

 

[Mrs. Edge]

I appreciate your answer, Blacksword, and I do remember your mentioning this business about getting to meet Christ after you are dead. That addresses a huge concern, that's for sure. I think there is a difference between "not embracing" and outright "rejecting" of Christ. I am open minded enough to be convinced, but so far there have been too many frustrations and barriers and I can't be convinced until I can buy into the concepts.

As for the free choice thing, I think we actually ARE automatons/puppets. We basically have two choices 1) believe in Jesus and go to heaven or 2) don't and go to hell. When you think about it, most Christians would say that isn't a choice at all, there is only one choice, so that's what they do for fear of the repercussions!

I still think God should have come up with a better system where people were aware of him and therefore had no problem believing in him, yet still had free choice to behave a certain way while on earth.

 

[EPandAmerica]

Christian is just a title, what is in your heart is what matters.

Exactly! It does not matter what may come out of your mouth, God KNOWS what is in your heart.

If you are on your death bed saying please forgive me I have sinned, but in your heart you are only saying those words out of fear of death and not repentance, God will know your true feelings. PERIOD.

 

[Dreadsox]

Again, we agree.

I am in no shape for debate, I am drugged up from the surgery. Peace...and I am glad we agree on something.

I have a question....do you believe the Holy Spirit is not present in everyone?

 

[deep]

Just one note - rejection of Jesus Christ is the only sin that "sends you to hell".

Thanks for the excellent discussion!

If someone is approached by a believer thats wants to witness to them and the approached person says I have no interest in what you are saying.

Well, have they rejected* and earned an eternity in darkness?

 

[nbcrusader]

I am in no shape for debate, I am drugged up from the surgery. Peace...and I am glad we agree on something.

I have a question....do you believe the Holy Spirit is not present in everyone?

First, all believers are indwelled with Holy Spirit.

Second, I believe the Holy Spirit works in the lives of non-believers - this is what causes us to search for God.

So, I cannot put any limitations on where the Holy Spirit goes, but I find nothing that suggests that all people are indwelled with the Holy Spirit.

Dread - praying for your swift recovery.

 

[Dreadsox]

First, all believers are indwelled with Holy Spirit.

Second, I believe the Holy Spirit works in the lives of non-believers - this is what causes us to search for God.

So, I cannot put any limitations on where the Holy Spirit goes, but I find nothing that suggests that all people are indwelled with the Holy Spirit.

Dread - praying for your swift recovery.

Thanks

 

[martha]

Martha, anyone who does evil is at that moment not in a proper relationship with Christ. They my say they are but they aren't. Unless they repent and live in Christ, calling on his name and giving themselves the title of Christian means nothing. You cannot truly belive in Christ and unrepentantly do evil. A evil mindset (where evil actions appear acceptable) means you are not in connection with Christ. If you justify these actions until your time of death, all the crosses, prayers (unless they are prayers of repentance) and church services in the world will not save you. It is one thing to profess to follow Christ and to belive in him it is another to actually do it. Christian is just a title, what is in your heart is what matters.

Another excellent post. It clears some things up for me.

 

[martha]

As for the free choice thing, I think we actually ARE automatons/puppets. We basically have two choices 1) believe in Jesus and go to heaven or 2) don't and go to hell.

According to Christians. Remember, most of the planet are not Christian.


We should talk.

 

[Scarletwine]

Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel
And if this grace is open to everyone, then I would think that even if somebody doesn't accept it now, because they have their reasons, God would therefore understand, and wouldn't automatically reject them because they weren't ready to accept it.




If we get in anyway, it makes Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross for nothing. Scripture does not suggest that people have the luxury of rejecting Christ.

Jesus' sacrifice was for mankind, not just Christians to be. I disagree, his sacrifice was ffor mankind's salvation. I have to agree 100% with Dreadsox. I see him as the bouncer at the door. All people of faith have a way in.

 

[nbcrusader]

All people of faith have a way in.

Faith in what?

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

I appreciate your answer, Blacksword, and I do remember your mentioning this business about getting to meet Christ after you are dead. That addresses a huge concern, that's for sure. I think there is a difference between "not embracing" and outright "rejecting" of Christ. I am open minded enough to be convinced, but so far there have been too many frustrations and barriers and I can't be convinced until I can buy into the concepts.

Nicely said. . I feel there's a higher being out there...but it would definitely be nice to break through the barriers and frustrations and stuff like that, that way I can be completely convinced.

Originally posted by Mrs. Edge
I still think God should have come up with a better system where people were aware of him and therefore had no problem believing in him, yet still had free choice to behave a certain way while on earth.

Exactly.

Angela

 

[anitram]

According to Christians. Remember, most of the planet are not Christian.


We should talk.

I feel like I'm repeating myself ad nauseum, but martha, that's just not true. SOME Christians believe this to be the case, but not only do others not believe it, but actually the majority don't.

 

[martha]

Ok.

 

[Blacksword]

antiram I don't think you're quite right about all Catholics believing non-Christians to be saved. There are still a fair number of Catholics the world over who think Protestants are going to hell, let alone people of other religions. You're making a blanket statement about Catholicism in the same way you accuse others here about making balnket statements about Christianity. Furthermore it's not just right wing evangelical Protestants who follow the through Christ alone belief. My Church the Presbyterian Church in Canada while it is fairly conseravtive isn't what you'd call far right, nor could it ever be accused of being evangelical (the majority of members are far too uptight for that sort of thing - members within the church haven't nick named it "God's frozen chosen" for nothing) yet it follows salvation through Christ alone. The United Church of Canada split right down the middle and threw out a moderator over his declaration that there were other paths to salvation than Christ (well that and homosexuality). And the United Church is a pretty liberal denomination (it allows gay ministers).

 

[martha]

Ok.

 

[anitram]

I'm talking about Catholic dogma, as per the 2nd Vatican Council. You probably do have Catholics who aren't aware of it, sure. But it's still Church teaching, which differentiates it from the Protestant camp.

I honestly don't concern myself much, I don't attend Catholic Church, nor do I see myself as a practicing Christian. Frankly, nothing turns me off Christianity like some Christians do.

 

[beli]

Okay, I need help here. If we just stick to the Catholic denomination for a moment. According to this thread, if I have the right end of the stick, Catholics are more broad minded as to who gets into heaven? How come its the Catholics that say people who believe in Jesus/God who suicide arent going to heaven.

(not a criticism, Im just trying to 'vocalise' (typealise?) my confusion.)

 

[deep]

"Call men sinners? It is a sin to call men sinners!"

It fills my heart with joy unspeakable to rise in response to the grand words of welcome given to us by you. I thank you in the name of the most ancient order of monks the world has ever seen, of which the Buddha was only a member. I thank you in the name of the Mother of religions, of which Buddhism and Jainism are but branches; and I thank you, finally, in the name of the millions and millions of Hindu people?

I am proud to belong to a religion that has taught the world both tolerance and universal acceptance?We believe not only in universal tolerance but we accept all religions to be true. I will quote to you, brothers, a few lines from a hymn which every Hindu child repeats every day. I feel that the very spirit of this hymn, which I have repeated from my earliest boyhood, which is every day repeated by millions and millions of men in India, has at last come to be realized. "As the different streams, having their sources in different places, all mingle their water in the sea; O Lord, so the different paths which men take through different tendencies, various though they appear, crooked or straight, all lead to Thee."

The present convention, which is one of the most august assemblies ever held, is in itself an indication, a declaration to the world of the wonderful doctrine preached in the Bhagavad Gita: "Whosoever comes to Me, through whatsoever form I reach him, all are struggling through paths that in the end always lead to Me."

Sectarianism, bigotry and its horrible descendant, fanaticism, have possessed long this beautiful earth. It has filled the earth with violence, drenched it often and often with human blood, destroyed civilizations, and sent whole nations into despair. But its time has come, and I fervently believe that the bell that tolled this morning in honor of the representatives of the different religions of the earth at this Parliament is the death-knell to all fanaticism, that it is the death-knell to all persecution with the sword or the pen, and to all uncharitable feelings between brethren winding their way to the same goal, but through different ways.

Swami Vivekananda and The 1893 World Parliament of Religions http://www.namastebooks.com/

 

[Liesje]

Furthermore it's not just right wing evangelical Protestants who follow the through Christ alone belief.

I don't even know what is considered a "right wing evangelical Protestant", but I believe the above.

 

[Liesje]

According to this thread, if I have the right end of the stick, Catholics are more broad minded as to who gets into heaven?

Well, you can make arguments either way. True Calvinists believe in the idea of "elect" (which is much more complex than it sounds, so please people don't automatically assume this concept has negative connotations if you are not familiar with it) and I think people who still have rigid beliefs in "election" are few and far between. But then again, if Catholicism is a faith-works religion and Protestantism is only thru faith, then you could argue that salvation here is more inclusive because you don't have to be baptized, do penance, other good works, etc. to go to Heaven, you only have to accept the Grace of Jesus.

 

[beli]

So Protestants believe that only people who believe in Jesus get into heaven? But Catholics believe more people than just the global minority of people who believe in Jesus will get into heaven? Or am I barking up the wrong tree? Theres so many concepts in this thread that are new to me (faithworks, elect, etc) that my head is spinning.

If Anitram is Catholic and LivLov is Calvin, what denomination are NBCrusader and Dreadsox please? (They sound like their on opposite ends of the spectrum). Im trying to untangle the different denominations in my head. Apologies for my ignorance.

 

[Dreadsox]

I was raised a Catholic. I have attended MANY churches since I turned 18. Nazarene, Congregational, Assemblies of God, Unitarian, Catholic again, and now Episcopal (Anglican).

One thing I believe is that TOO many churches believe that they KNOW the absolute TRUTH. To me, this is putting limits on GOD.

 

[Angela Harlem]

Finally. Someone said it lol. Actually, I'd ammend that Dread to all churches feel they know the absolute truth. If they dont, there is no point. Naturally they and the members of each are going to think they are correct. There is nothing wrong with feeling you are 100% right and have found the truth. That is faith. To tell someone else they are a sinner or are going to some place other than heaven or are just simply wrong is so utterly offensive to me. No one knows the will of God or whatever higher entity it is. No one can say they KNOW, it is only ever faith.

I'm not quite sure why this bothers me as much as it does.

 

[nbcrusader]

I'm talking about Catholic dogma, as per the 2nd Vatican Council. You probably do have Catholics who aren't aware of it, sure. But it's still Church teaching, which differentiates it from the Protestant camp.

But it is still one of many Catholic teachings. The Vatican has never repudiated the belief that Protestants are a anethema - cursed and doomed to hell.

 

[nbcrusader]

One thing I believe is that TOO many churches believe that they KNOW the absolute TRUTH. To me, this is putting limits on GOD.

Are these each separate and distinct Truths or is there a common Scriptural truth with different applications and methods of worship?

 

[nbcrusader]

If Anitram is Catholic and LivLov is Calvin, what denomination are NBCrusader and Dreadsox please? (They sound like their on opposite ends of the spectrum). Im trying to untangle the different denominations in my head. Apologies for my ignorance.

For what its worth, I am an elder at a Presbyterian church. I was not raised a Presbyterian nor would I use the term Presbyterian to describe my faith.