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Old 03-04-2004, 08:52 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox


Well, let me start by saying......I have FAITH that there is more than one way. My faith is in GOD that this is true. I have faith that those who sincerely seek him will be rewarded. Nothing you quoted indicates that there is NO OTHER WAY.
Ephesians 2:8-9 pretty much cuts out works...
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Old 03-04-2004, 08:58 PM   #47
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Originally posted by Kieran McConville
What's to tell? I think a short history of the Reformation (there must be one on the web somewhere) would probably lay it out.

My personal theory is that the early Protestants reacted so far against the corrupt (then) Catholic practice of 'indulgences' that faith alone became the overriding issue... hence the cliche of the redneck murdering bastard who goes to heaven because he 'believes'. Of course it's all very complex and I'm just typing out loud here.
OK, since I have an exam on this next week, I'll bust out the religion notes and give it a go...

Lade Medieval Catholicism believed that certain sacraments (the "works" here) physically changed you. These were baptism, confirmation, and ordination. God sort of stamped a mark on your heart and your will became intertwined with God's such that your entire character/personality was altered.

Luther was the first major figure to have beef w/ Catholicism, first for their excessive sale of indulgences (you could buy your way into heave/ pay $$$ for sins instead of penance). Luther opposed "infused grace", the idea that certain sacraments physically change you. He said grace/salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ alone. Luther also refused to recognize James or Hwbrews b/c they focus on works ("Faith w/o works is dead.").

To Be Continued...
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Old 03-04-2004, 09:05 PM   #48
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.....

Luther's main points:

Justification - thru faith alone

Theology of Glory vs. Theology of the Cross - "scholastic theology"/humanism glorifies human reason, arrogance, pride, etc. and Jesus' life and death should be the central focus

Sola Scriptura - the Bible alone is God's authority, not clergy or scholars. All people should have access to the Bible.

Vernacular Preaching - pushes aside emphesis on sacraments and places it on Scripture

Reject Externals - indulgences, monasticism, clerical celebacy are all unimportant and tend to divide Christians. Ignore relics, saints, pergatory

Availability of Vernacular Bible - translate out of Latin so ALL people can read, NOT just clergy and scholars


There. those are the major theological differences b/w Luther (first wave of Reformation) and Catholicism. If you need explanation of the rest of the Reformation (Zwingli and Calvin) I can do that too I suppose.
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Old 03-04-2004, 09:06 PM   #49
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But this:

Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader

The problem with multiple "truths" is that it essentially make Jesus Christ a liar.

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6

God made the plan simple, so no one can take selfish pride in their faith:

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

God makes the decision. We cannot earn it ourselves. We should never try and play gatekeeper.
is what I'm talking about. Jesus is IT for Christians. No matter what they do, if they are true and professed Christians, they go to Heaven. I'm not, so I don't, no matter what I do. Right?
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Old 03-04-2004, 09:08 PM   #50
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not all christians think that all other christians get a one-way ticket to heaven just for professing their faith.
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Old 03-04-2004, 09:09 PM   #51
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Originally posted by martha
Jesus is IT for Christians. No matter what they do, if they are true and professed Christians, they go to Heaven. I'm not, so I don't, no matter what I do. Right?
if "true" and "professed" Christians means they have accepted Jesus and Lord and Savior and accepted that it is through His grace ALONE that they are saved, then yes.
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Old 03-04-2004, 09:10 PM   #52
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Originally posted by Screaming Flower
not all christians think that all other christians get a one-way ticket to heaven just for professing their faith.
In my church, Profession of Faith is just a public affirmation of your faith and means you become a full member of the church. It's definitely NOT a means of salvation. That is between you and God/Jesus.
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Old 03-04-2004, 09:11 PM   #53
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Dread, how do you interpret John 14:6?

"Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (my emphasis)

This is actually from the same discussion with the disciples you initially mentioned, just after He made the comment about His Father's house having many rooms...
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Old 03-04-2004, 09:12 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by Screaming Flower
not all christians think that all other christians get a one-way ticket to heaven just for professing their faith.
So, do some Christians go to Hell for their conduct?
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Old 03-04-2004, 09:12 PM   #55
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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic
In my church, Profession of Faith is just a public affirmation of your faith and means you become a full member of the church. It's definitely NOT a means of salvation. That is between you and God/Jesus.
i think that is kind of what i said. sorry if my wording didn't make sense.
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Old 03-04-2004, 09:13 PM   #56
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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic


if "true" and "professed" Christians means they have accepted Jesus and Lord and Savior and accepted that it is through His grace ALONE that they are saved, then yes.
So, they can murder and then go to Heaven?
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Old 03-04-2004, 09:13 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by martha


So, do some Christians go to Hell for their conduct?
oh yes
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Old 03-04-2004, 09:14 PM   #58
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Originally posted by Screaming Flower


i think that is kind of what i said. sorry if my wording didn't make sense.
oh, sorry, I didn't mean to say you were wrong. I quoted it b/c I agreed and wanted to give an example.
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Old 03-04-2004, 09:14 PM   #59
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Yes, Catholics believe you need faith and works to get to "heaven." The reason Luther disagreed is because in medieval times, this meant that you'd need to funnel money into the Church in order for your soul to be saved. There are stories of priests walking around with cans and when you would drop a coin inside, on behalf of a dead relative, when the coin hit the bottom of the can they would say "Now you can hear Aunt Marge's soul escaping purgatory."

It is also Catholic dogma that non-Christians can be saved, it is summed up as this:

Quote:
"5. The non-Christian may not be blamed for his ignorance of Christ and his Church; salvation is open to him also, if he seeks God sincerely and if he follows the commands of his conscience, for through this means the Holy Ghost acts upon all men; this divine action is not confined within the limited boundaries of the visible Church."
That is from the 2nd Vatican Ecumenical Council, if anyone is interested.

I agree with this view, although I am a lapsed Catholic.
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Old 03-04-2004, 09:15 PM   #60
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Originally posted by martha


So, they can murder and then go to Heaven?
Yes, ANYONE (even Hitler I supposed) can go to Heaven, otherwise it's not fair.
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