How good do you think you have to be to get into heaven?

[nbcrusader]

Peace to all for the night - I need to get at least a smidge of beauty rest for tomorrow

Not you!

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Wow, this thread really got going tonight.

I'm agreeing with martha, BVS, and Dread.

I just hate the idea of heaven being some elite little club where only certain people can be allowed in-that's what some Christians I've come across in this country have made it seem like, and I don't like that. That doesn't sound like something an all-loving God would do.

Just out of curiosity, to the Christians out there, what would happen if another religion's god was the one we all should've been worshipping this time? What would you do then?

God himself has not come down and shown us he truly exists, so is it any wonder then why some don't believe in him? I don't think he'd reject non-Christians because they didn't know for sure, just as I don't think Allah would reject non-Muslims because they didn't know for sure.

Angela

 

[Angela Harlem]

Someone who believes in God but doesn't attend church, or read the bible is not going? You have to join the club to get a seat?

Someone who spends quite a portion of their life looking for God, always believing but not quite feeling the relationship is there, is not going?

What is the definition (anyone's) on Thou Shalt Not Judge. Thinking to yourself "that Mormon/Buddhist/Muslim/JW isn't going to heaven as they haven't found the path. The path declared by Jesus himself". Is this not thinking for God? I've understood no mere man can or should assume to know His intentions. I see judgement, or what I refer to it, when this kind of thing happens. The speaker orates based on their views and thus looks to be saying 'this is how it is going to be chaps'. No one knows what His plan is. A few hundred pages of a book don't explain what I think is one of the most vast and complex plans. Saying this or anything along these lines is based on someone's very own personal view and relationship with God as they see it, and making a judgement on someone else's on God's behalf. No one knows what God has planned for me. To say they'd know, I find highly presumptuous. We really never know God's will, right?

Calling on sin. Let God judge me. Same principle as above I supose.


/random thoughts
****
the YOU and ME in this post is not any one person, but figurative

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Someone who believes in God but doesn't attend church, or read the bible is not going? You have to join the club to get a seat?

Someone who spends quite a portion of their life looking for God, always believing but not quite feeling the relationship is there, is not going?

What is the definition (anyone's) on Thou Shalt Not Judge. Thinking to yourself "that Mormon/Buddhist/Muslim/JW isn't going to heaven as they haven't found the path. The path declared by Jesus himself". Is this not thinking for God? I've understood no mere man can or should assume to know His intentions. I see judgement, or what I refer to it, when this kind of thing happens. The speaker orates based on their views and thus looks to be saying 'this is how it is going to be chaps'. No one knows what His plan is. A few hundred pages of a book don't explain what I think is one of the most vast and complex plans. Saying this or anything along these lines is based on someone's very own personal view and relationship with God as they see it, and making a judgement on someone else's on God's behalf. No one knows what God has planned for me. To say they'd know, I find highly presumptuous. We really never know God's will, right?

Calling on sin. Let God judge me. Same principle as above I supose.


/random thoughts
****
the YOU and ME in this post is not any one person, but figurative

. Nicely said.

Angela

 

[Dreadsox]

No one is saying He can't or won't. The issue is, "what is your source of Truth?"

The Bible....

Of course if you believe that man is the important deciding factor in this, there is nothing I can do to change your mind.

It is very much like Baptism. One Theologian that I became friends with in college said it was a SIN for a Catholic to be rebaptized as an adult, a practice that has come abouit because some denominations do not believe in infant Baptism. The theologian basically asked us the question "Who is responsible for the power of the baptism, the person or God? If you believe someone has to be realized you are basically saying GOD is powerless in this Sacrament. However, if you believe that Baptism is more dependant on God than man, it does not matter when you are Baptized, but to do it again is a SIN."

I believe this applies here. The source of my truth is in the global picture. Jesus was with everyone that needed forgiveness, Jew and Gentile. I do not believe that we, just like Baptism, can limit the power of God by taking A VERSE out of a global book in the Bible and declare it an aqbsolute truth that there is ONLY ONE WAY, or that GOD extends his forgiveness to one group of people.

This is no different than the belief in the TRINITY. You can make a circumstantial case that the TRINITY exists. However, like the trinity my belief is based completely on FAITH.

 

[Dreadsox]

I could go on.....

You could...and I could begin with each one of these, and we can disuss the intent of the whole entire passage, the people who were writing it, and the reason the letter or Gospel was written. Rather than lines taken out of it.

I am pretty sure that the followers of Jesus were not running around saying that Buddah is the way. No different than you or I may hope to see a Democracy in Iraq as opposed to another Dictator. We are preaching Democracy. It is pretty much logical that Jesus is the way.

Nothing I have said indicates that he ultimately is not the way. My contention is again, that the Salvation that Jesus extends is not dependant on mankind. The Salvation that Jesus offers is available to all and Jesus, being the doorman does get to decide.

The Holy Spirit does not just in Christians alone. If you believe that you can see so much of God in children, then how does that happen. The children I see show much of Gods love towards each other in many ways. There are so many who are NOT Christian. It is impossible for me to say they are not part of God's plan nor that they are welcome in the kingdom because they are Christian or NOT.

There is only one Judge. He is Merciful. He is Forgiving. He is Understanding.

 

[martha]

So.


Some Christians believe that only those who profess a faith in Jesus as their Saviour will go to Heaven. Some Christians believe that professing faith and good behavior will get you there. Some Christians believe that decent behavior will get you there, even without faith in Jesus.


Did I get that right?

 

[Liesje]

So.


Some Christians believe that only those who profess a faith in Jesus as their Saviour will go to Heaven. Some Christians believe that professing faith and good behavior will get you there. Some Christians believe that decent behavior will get you there, even without faith in Jesus.


Did I get that right?

yes, but replace "professing faith" with accepting Jesus and His grace (Profession of Faith is more of a ceremonial thing churches do, it doesn't = salvation).

 

[nbcrusader]

I just hate the idea of heaven being some elite little club where only certain people can be allowed in-that's what some Christians I've come across in this country have made it seem like, and I don't like that. That doesn't sound like something an all-loving God would do.

Why in the world do you portray this as a elite little club. We are discussing a grace that is open to EVERYONE! Not one believer or nonbeliever can prevent you from accepting God's gift of grace. I'm not sure what you are hating here.

Just out of curiosity, to the Christians out there, what would happen if another religion's god was the one we all should've been worshipping this time? What would you do then?

We can get different speculative answers for each speculative scenario we can think up. The discussion is based on what has been revealed to us.

God himself has not come down and shown us he truly exists, so is it any wonder then why some don't believe in him?

Well, I am sure things will change when Jesus does return. Until then, we are left with this:

"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." Romans 1:20

I don't think he'd reject non-Christians because they didn't know for sure,

Is it fair to say that we will be judged based on what has been revealed to us?

just as I don't think Allah would reject non-Muslims because they didn't know for sure.

Is this based on your knowledge of Islam or your general conceptions of God?

 

[nbcrusader]

You could...and I could begin with each one of these, and we can disuss the intent of the whole entire passage, the people who were writing it, and the reason the letter or Gospel was written. Rather than lines taken out of it.

Dread, this is not a matter of potentially taking a single verse out of context. Is it fair to say that if the same idea or concept is repeated numerous times in Scripture, it can be taken as Truth?

I am just as suspicious as you if someone is making claims based on a single verse, especially if the verse is taken out of context or conflicts with other verses in the Bible. But if the idea is repeated over and over, I think it is pretty safe to follow.

Nothing I have said indicates that he ultimately is not the way. My contention is again, that the Salvation that Jesus extends is not dependant on mankind. The Salvation that Jesus offers is available to all and Jesus, being the doorman does get to decide.

I think we are both saying the same thing.

The Holy Spirit does not just in Christians alone.

Curious, but is there anything in Scripture which supports this idea?

If you believe that you can see so much of God in children, then how does that happen. The children I see show much of Gods love towards each other in many ways. There are so many who are NOT Christian. It is impossible for me to say they are not part of God's plan nor that they are welcome in the kingdom because they are Christian or NOT.

This is why we, as adults, are told to approach God through the eyes of a child.

There is only one Judge. He is Merciful. He is Forgiving. He is Understanding.

Again, we agree.

 

[nbcrusader]

Someone who believes in God but doesn't attend church, or read the bible is not going? You have to join the club to get a seat?

Absolutely not. Church attendance or "joining a club" is not a requirement.

What is the definition (anyone's) on Thou Shalt Not Judge. Thinking to yourself "that Mormon/Buddhist/Muslim/JW isn't going to heaven as they haven't found the path. The path declared by Jesus himself". Is this not thinking for God?

No. God alone is the judge. But God has given us His Word and we are all free to compare this to any other beliefs. I think it is reasonable for me to compare the Bible with Mormon/Buddhist/Muslim/JW texts and say they don't match.

 

[pax]

Isn't it enough to say that none of us deserves Heaven, since we are all sinners, and that Jesus made possible Heaven for all of us? Heaven, after all, according (I think) to most contemporary theologians, is not a "place" or a "final destination"; it is eternal, joyful union with the God we love and Who loves us. For nonbelievers, following that line of logic, it may not even be an issue; why would a nonbeliever want an eternal, joyful union with the God they don't believe in?

This is NOT saying that non-Christians, agnostics, or atheists go to hell. It's not even saying they *won't* have some kind of positive afterlife experience. But I do tend to believe that heaven is not, in fact, a place; it is an experience which is logically limited to persons who believe in God. Do I believe I could be wrong on this? Oh, yes; I've changed my views on the afterlife a lot. Is it inconceivable that an all-loving God would invite nonbelievers to that kind of afterlife even after death? No, not at all. God can do anything. That's why She's God.

What I don't understand, though, is why a non-believer would even be interested in Heaven. Heaven is about hanging out with God for eternity. I don't even know if I believe in hell and I certainly can't predict who might go there--though I tend to believe that nothing bad will happen to people who were good in this life, regardless of their faith tradition or lack thereof. Maybe there's a different spiritual reality similar to Heaven for persons who belong to other faiths.

Anyway, after all this rambling, bottom line for me is this: Anyone can get to Heaven, not because any of us have done enough good things (because I don't think we have), but because Jesus loved us all as we are and died for our sins so we could then be "good enough" for Heaven. (This is not to say that an unrepentant axe murderer, say, who calls himself or herself a Christian would necessarily get into heaven--but then again, who knows?) Non-believers may or may not get to heaven; I have no idea how this works but tend to believe there has to be another option (i.e. besides hell).

Wow, I really need to work on sorting out some of these things in my head...

 

[nbcrusader]

Isn't it enough to say that none of us deserves Heaven, since we are all sinners,

This is where the views diverge. There are many who reject the idea that they are sinners or are in need of Salvation.

 

[anitram]

Funny, but God didn't say having more people on your side will get you to heaven.

Where did I say this? Thanks for imagining things.

I was pointing out that there are people on this thread like martha who were wondering about where "Christians" stand wrt this issue. Others on this thread were issuing blanket statements about "Christians" without mentioning a little something about their views actually being minority Christian views. That's what is important, I think. Because what I see happening is that Christianity is getting hijacked by the more evangelical denominations, when in reality, they are not at all representative of the majority Christian view. The views among the different denominations are becoming so different and so extreme in some cases that I don't believe it is possible whatsoever to have a united Christianity.

 

[nbcrusader]

I was pointing out that there are people on this thread like martha who were wondering about where "Christians" stand wrt this issue. Others on this thread were issuing blanket statements about "Christians" without mentioning a little something about their views actually being minority Christian views. That's what is important, I think. Because what I see happening is that Christianity is getting hijacked by the more evangelical denominations, when in reality, they are not at all representative of the majority Christian view. The views among the different denominations are becoming so different and so extreme in some cases that I don't believe it is possible whatsoever to have a united Christianity.

Hijacked? A group of Christians are explaining the basis of their faith using Scripture.

I guess my question is: How do you define a "Christian"?

 

[Blacksword]

My personal belief on the matter is that salvation is through Christ alone and the Grace his life, death and resurrection imparted to all people. Yet it is the responsibilty of people to accept that grace. That is the element of free will. We are free to accept or reject God. Heaven in being with God, hell is eternal separation from God. And as we were made by God to be with with him, therefore eternal separation from Him is eternal suffering. But it is a chose thing. God does not send people to hell, hell is a choice.

Now while I belive faith in Christ as the Son of God, truly God, and in his Salvation is the only sure way to be in a right relationship with God, I do belive that God's Grace though Christ is unlimited and knows no bounds. Yet we do not know how that Grace works or how it might save others. And the weight of testimony in all of the Gospels and in the letters is that not all will be saved ( I could give you a list but I don't have time, just let me say its in the range of dozens of verses - it saddens me and it is something I struggle with but it is explicitly stated). Thus we as belivers in Christ evangelize as we only know of one sure way for people to be saved. Thus we must attempt to "make disciples of all nations," as we are the only instuments of God's Grace that we know of explicitly.

At the same time there is also the fact that when Christ died he died and thus was with everyone who had died and will die and the tradition is that he preached to all in Sheol (the grave). So God has not forgotten anyone.

As to works. Faith and works are related closely. If one has faith one has good works. "A tree is judged by its fruit." Though at the same time it is hard to determine the difference faith makes as every person is different. This is why being nice, or "good" is simply not enough. If one is born with a disposition to be mean and nasty and has a terrible childhood, one's natural inclination is to be vile and awful. Faith in Christ will make that person a lot better than they would be with out it, yet it may not make them as pleasant as say someone who was bron with a basic personality matrix which is cheerful and generous and had a welcoming upbringing in pleasant surroundings. This is one reason why we must never judge. We do not see the inner soul which is more than the outer shell of personality and the mind and the physical body. To paraphrase C.S. Lewis: (from whom most of my langue here comes) for one who has been brutalized since brith the smallest action of kindness may require the same spiritual effort as a laying down your life for another for a person with a nice life and a nice disposition. It is the state of the soul whihc matters in the end rather than how outwardly good you are. But at the same time one cannot be in relationship with Christ while doing evil unrepentantly. And true repentance involves a far greater internal change than just saying sorry, or outwardly repenting onyour deathbed for fear of the fires of hell. But the fact is that people who have murdered will be in heaven (the thief on the cross whom Jesus promised would be with him in Paradise didn't get there for being a nice guy, most likely he was a rebel who killed some people along the way). But at their death they will not have been murderers as they will have repented much as the thief on the cross did (thief in the modern translation can be misleading as Barabas is called a thief in some accounts and rebel and murderer in others).

Works only matter in the way they reflect the soul. If your acceptance of Christ is real then there will a change. The problem is that some of us require more work than others.

 

[nbcrusader]

Where did I say this? Thanks for imagining things.

You were discounting the concept of sola fide, not by using Scripture, but by claiming that more people believed otherwise. I'm not sure God is in the number's game.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Why in the world do you portray this as a elite little club. We are discussing a grace that is open to EVERYONE! Not one believer or nonbeliever can prevent you from accepting God's gift of grace. I'm not sure what you are hating here.

Actually, I'm not the one portraying heaven as an elite club-some Christians I've come across in my lifetime are the ones who make it out to be one, and I was just wondering why that is. That is what I hate. I don't think that's what heaven is, or should be. I think heaven would welcome any good souls with open arms, regardless of who they are.

And if this grace is open to everyone, then I would think that even if somebody doesn't accept it now, because they have their reasons, God would therefore understand, and wouldn't automatically reject them because they weren't ready to accept it.

Originally posted by nbcrusader
We can get different speculative answers for each speculative scenario we can think up. The discussion is based on what has been revealed to us.

Well, a lot of people of other religions have had bunches of things revealed to them, too. So why don't you follow those teachings?

Originally posted by nbcrusader
Well, I am sure things will change when Jesus does return. Until then, we are left with this:

"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." Romans 1:20

If God's nature is so easily understood, why are there so many denominations of Christianity? Everyone has their own idea of what God's nature is, so obviously it's not crystal clear.

And as for Jesus returning...well, not everyone is sure about that. It might happen, it might not. Nobody knows for sure. I don't know, you don't know, nobody knows.

Originally posted by nbcrusader
Is it fair to say that we will be judged based on what has been revealed to us?

Possibly. Or we could be judged simply on how good of people we've all been in our lifetimes. Or we could be judged on many other things. Who knows what exactly God will judge us on?

Originally posted by nbcrusader
Is this based on your knowledge of Islam or your general conceptions of God?

General conceptions of God, overall. That, and I do know a Muslim who's shared a little about their faith with me from time to time. I'm not an expert on Islam, but from what this person's shared with me, Allah's just as nice as the Christian God is.

Angela

 

[nbcrusader]

Nicely said Blacksword

 

[Liesje]

My personal belief on the matter is that salvation is through Christ alone and the Grace his life, death and resurrection imparted to all people. Yet it is the responsibilty of people to accept that grace. That is the element of free will. We are free to accept or reject God. Heaven in being with God, hell is eternal separation from God. And as we were made by God to be with with him, therefore eternal separation from Him is eternal suffering. But it is a chose thing. God does not send people to hell, hell is a choice.

Now while I belive faith in Christ as the Son of God, truly God, and in his Salvation is the only sure way to be in a right relationship with God, I do belive that God's Grace though Christ is unlimited and knows no bounds. Yet we do not know how that Grace works or how it might save others. And the weight of testimony in all of the Gospels and in the letters is that not all will be saved ( I could give you a list but I don't have time, just let me say its in the range of dozens of verses - it saddens me and it is something I struggle with but it is explicitly stated). Thus we as belivers in Christ evangelize as we only know of one sure way for people to be saved. Thus we must attempt to "make disciples of all nations," as we are the only instuments of God's Grace that we know of explicitly.

At the same time there is also the fact that when Christ died he died and thus was with everyone who had died and will die and the tradition is that he preached to all in Sheol (the grave). So God has not forgotten anyone.

As to works. Faith and works are related closely. If one has faith one has good works. "A tree is judged by its fruit." Though at the same time it is hard to determine the difference faith makes as every person is different. This is why being nice, or "good" is simply not enough. If one is born with a disposition to be mean and nasty and has a terrible childhood, one's natural inclination is to be vile and awful. Faith in Christ will make that person a lot better than they would be with out it, yet it may not make them as pleasant as say someone who was bron with a basic personality matrix which is cheerful and generous and had a welcoming upbringing in pleasant surroundings. This is one reason why we must never judge. We do not see the inner soul which is more than the outer shell of personality and the mind and the physical body. To paraphrase C.S. Lewis: (from whom most of my langue here comes) for one who has been brutalized since brith the smallest action of kindness may require the same spiritual effort as a laying down your life for another for a person with a nice life and a nice disposition. It is the state of the soul whihc matters in the end rather than how outwardly good you are. But at the same time one cannot be in relationship with Christ while doing evil unrepentantly. And true repentance involves a far greater internal change than just saying sorry, or outwardly repenting onyour deathbed for fear of the fires of hell. But the fact is that people who have murdered will be in heaven (the thief on the cross whom Jesus promised would be with him in Paradise didn't get there for being a nice guy, most likely he was a rebel who killed some people along the way). But at their death they will not have been murderers as they will have repented much as the thief on the cross did (thief in the modern translation can be misleading as Barabas is called a thief in some accounts and rebel and murderer in others).

Works only matter in the way they reflect the soul. If your acceptance of Christ is real then there will a change. The problem is that some of us require more work than others.

Some people are just SO much better at saying things!

 

[Blacksword]

Read C.S. Lewis, he makes so many complicated things positively simple. He could both debate higher logic and philosophy in meetings at Oxford, and be intelligible to a person with only limited education. Brilliant man. Mere Christianity is a good book to have. I don't agree with everything in it, but rarely have I come across a book that puts into words so much that I was thinking but could not express. And put it in fairly simple language.

 

[nbcrusader]

Actually, I'm not the one portraying heaven as an elite club-some Christians I've come across in my lifetime are the ones who make it out to be one, and I was just wondering why that is. That is what I hate.

Well, it isn't an elite club and I am sorry you have had bad experiences with those who portray otherwise. Sinful pride remains because we are human.

I don't think that's what heaven is, or should be. I think heaven would welcome any good souls with open arms, regardless of who they are.

All I can do is describe what is revealed through Scripture. Obviously we will come to different conclusions if we base this on what we, as individuals, want heaven to be.

And if this grace is open to everyone, then I would think that even if somebody doesn't accept it now, because they have their reasons, God would therefore understand, and wouldn't automatically reject them because they weren't ready to accept it.

If we get in anyway, it makes Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross for nothing. Scripture does not suggest that people have the luxury of rejecting Christ.

If God's nature is so easily understood, why are there so many denominations of Christianity? Everyone has their own idea of what God's nature is, so obviously it's not crystal clear.

You have a perfect Word with imperfect people. The schisms that exist within Christianity occurred from the earlist days. As you can imagine, Satan would prefer to divide and conquer and our sin nature has followed along.

And as for Jesus returning...well, not everyone is sure about that. It might happen, it might not. Nobody knows for sure. I don't know, you don't know, nobody knows.

Actually, God's prophcy does come true. It is validated within Scripture itself. I will be the first to say WE DON'T KNOW WHEN THIS WILL HAPPEN. I would caution you away from anyone who says otherwise. But as to the point of whether Jesus will returnor not, Scripture is clear that He will.

General conceptions of God, overall. That, and I do know a Muslim who's shared a little about their faith with me from time to time. I'm not an expert on Islam, but from what this person's shared with me, Allah's just as nice as the Christian God is.

Actually, in Islam, non-muslims have NO chance of paradice.

 

[anitram]

You were discounting the concept of sola fide,

No, I wasn't. You can believe in the concept, I just don't see why it should be presented as a "Christian" view (ETA: especially when answering the question of non-Christians, it is important to state not only one minority view, but share what it is that the different groups believe in) when in fact it is not representative of the majority of Christians. Is that really so hard to understand?

It is the same as those fundamentalist Muslims who misinterpret certain passages and then the rest of the Muslim world is thought to share the views. Simply incorrect. Christianity is not a unified religion.

 

[nbcrusader]

Well, if anything can be truth, then I guess it is difficult to understand.

I'll clarify to say sola fide is the Biblical view.

 

[martha]

If one has faith one has good works. .... But at the same time one cannot be in relationship with Christ while doing evil unrepentantly.... But the fact is that people who have murdered will be in heaven

That whole post was excellent and intelligently written.

But the parts I've excerpted here are the troublesome parts for me. The assumption that Christians cannot do evil is proven time and again to be untrue. Many people who truly believe in Christ commit evil every day. And they frequently do it in Christ's name!




Is it a matter of whose definition of evil is used?

 

[Blacksword]

The fact that not all will be saved is pretty explicit in the NT. I'm not stating this because the idea appeals to me or that it makes me feel superior. I very much don't like the fact that all will not be saved. It saddens me and I wish it were not the case, but God gave us free will and focing those who reject him to join him violates this free will. Free will means we are free to do things whihc are against our best interests. It's part of the package.

 

[nbcrusader]

The assumption that Christians cannot do evil is proven time and again to be untrue. Many people who truly believe in Christ commit evil every day. And they frequently do it in Christ's name!

No such presumption exists. No one claims that Christians are perfect or do no wrong.

The key word in Blacksword's post was unrepentantly. To be unrepentant is to say to Christ "I don't need your forgiveness". This suggests that no true change, no true belief exists.

 

[anitram]

Actually, in Islam, non-muslims have NO chance of paradice.

Wrong.

The Qu'ran is in fact contradictory when it comes to what happens to The People of the Book (Christians and Jews). Therefore you cannot make the claim of "NO chance in paradise."

Sura 2:62 (Yusuf Ali translation): Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

Sura 5:69 (same translation): Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

And then you have:

Sura 3:85: If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to God), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).

 

[Mrs. Edge]

Wow. First of all, this whole thread started as a result of Dread's very kind response to my comment in the gay marriage thread about my lack of Salvation being someone raised with no religion. So thanks Dread, for making me feel better.

It's just so hard to know what and whom to believe when not only are there billions of people with other religions in the world, but even the Christians can't agree. WHO DO YOU BELIEVE!?!?!?!? Where do you devote your energies to learn more? I barely have time to read a novel let alone reams of religious text!!!!

And what if I made the commitment to Christianity, and then found out that a totally different religion was the right one? What a waste that would be. Everything is based on faith, there is no proof that God exists *at all* for that matter, although I like to believe he does.

Martha has brought up basically every concern that I also worry about. I agree with Angela, there is definitely the perception out there that Christianity is a club run by arrogant people who are all claiming to have excluivity on THE TRUTH. It fills the rest of us with indignation, fear and futility. Basically, you can like it or lump it. It makes me very uncofmortable.

The whole thing about Hitler being able to "get in" and my not being able to, simply because I am not a Christian (through my upbrining and no fault of my own) appalls me. Is God really THAT PETTY??? That is not love. It is not motivating to make me want to search harder.

See, here is the biggest problem I have (in 2 parts):

First of all, why did God have to create such imperfect people in the first place?

And then to have a solution that half the Globe won't have even heard of? Like for example, what happened to all the Asians and Africans in the few hundred years after Jesus' death that never heard about him at all? It's a tremendously flawed system. You'd think someone as all knowing as God could have come up with a better one!!!

And if God wants us all to be saved, then why not just save us then? And why make Jesus have to go through all that?

And finally, this idea of free will and CHOOSING God. Why does he even CARE what we choose? God is God, he's going to do what he wants anyway.

As for me, I'd LOVE to be able to just choose Jesus and be saved. It would make life so much easier in every way. But it's not real unless you MEAN it, and I can't just suddenly devote myelf to someone I have never met and as a result feel nothing for. It's like marrying a total stranger. Belief that powerful and deep takes time, and I can just see myself getting killed before having the chance to explore this and it being too late, and going to hell as the next repenting mass murderer child rapist gets a free ticket. It's not fair! And BECAUSE it's an unfair system, I am therefore less inclined to want to pursue it, so it becomes a vicious cycle.

 

[Blacksword]

That whole post was excellent and intelligently written.

But the parts I've excerpted here are the troublesome parts for me. The assumption that Christians cannot do evil is proven time and again to be untrue. Many people who truly believe in Christ commit evil every day. And they frequently do it in Christ's name!




Is it a matter of whose definition of evil is used?

Martha, anyone who does evil is at that moment not in a proper relationship with Christ. They my say they are but they aren't. Unless they repent and live in Christ, calling on his name and giving themselves the title of Christian means nothing. You cannot truly belive in Christ and unrepentantly do evil. A evil mindset (where evil actions appear acceptable) means you are not in connection with Christ. If you justify these actions until your time of death, all the crosses, prayers (unless they are prayers of repentance) and church services in the world will not save you. It is one thing to profess to follow Christ and to belive in him it is another to actually do it. Christian is just a title, what is in your heart is what matters.