How good do you think you have to be to get into heaven?

[FizzingWhizzbees]

Live an honourable life while your living becasue it is the right thing to do now. Love thy neighbour not as a means to an afterlife but because it is what is in your heart and soul. Live a good life because you want to be good an loving not because you want to get to heaven.

I agree. Doing the right thing is its own reward. We shouldn't need some sort of "eternal reward" to motivate us to show compassion to each other.

 

[nbcrusader]

We shouldn't need some sort of "eternal reward" to motivate us to show compassion to each other.

Good. God says it won't work anyways.

 

[bonosloveslave]

I agree. Doing the right thing is its own reward. We shouldn't need some sort of "eternal reward" to motivate us to show compassion to each other.

Absolutely

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

But do people really make a decision for Christ based on what might happen to other people? The question is really before the individual. Will you be in the presence of God?

I really have no idea. Personally I just want to find out if people in this thread think all of us who aren't Christians are going to hell.

 

[nbcrusader]

I really have no idea. Personally I just want to find out if people in this thread think all of us who aren't Christians are going to hell.

I can safely say that no Christian hopes you go to hell. In fact, we would love to spend eternity together with God.

 

[Katey]

I really have no idea. Personally I just want to find out if people in this thread think all of us who aren't Christians are going to hell

Well my grandmother has told me since I stopped going to church all those years ago that I am going to " hell in a hand basket" .
I 'm not sure what good a hand basket will be on the ride to hell ??

p.s I love you grandma even with all your strict old irish catholic ways...

 

[Dreadsox]

How about Hebrews 11:6?

"So, you see, it is impossible to please God without faith. Anyone who wants to come to him must believe that there is a God and that he rewards those who sincerely seek him." (New Living Translation)

* BTW, it is really interesting to see the spread of beliefs, especially in some people where I thought I knew what they would say You never know if you don't ask!

Well, let me start by saying......I have FAITH that there is more than one way. My faith is in GOD that this is true. I have faith that those who sincerely seek him will be rewarded. Nothing you quoted indicates that there is NO OTHER WAY.

 

[anitram]

I don't understand something.

According to some of you in the other thread, God revealed himself to people in the way they could understand. They could understand 7 days, but could not understand the modern rRNA theories.

So why is it not possible that God revealed himself to one set of people in the way they would understand (through Jesus) and to others in the way they would understand (Siddhartha Gautama)? If he is omnipotent, then why is it impossible?

ETA: This reminds me of a story my mom told me - a person had been dying of AIDS and when he prayed, he would say "To whom it may concern." When asked why, he said he was covering all his bases.

 

[Dreadsox]

[Q]
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

Heb 11:2 For by it the men of old gained approval.

Heb 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.

Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks.

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.

Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going.

Heb 11:9 By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise;

Heb 11:10 for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God.

Heb 11:11 By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive, even beyond the proper time of life, since she considered Him faithful who had promised.

Heb 11:12 Therefore there was born even of one man, and him as good as dead at that, as many descendants AS THE STARS OF HEAVEN IN NUMBER, AND INNUMERABLE AS THE SAND WHICH IS BY THE SEASHORE.

Heb 11:13 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.

Heb 11:14 For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own.

Heb 11:15 And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return.

Heb 11:16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.

Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son;

Heb 11:18 it was he to whom it was said, "IN ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS SHALL BE CALLED."

Heb 11:19 He considered that God is able to raise people even from the dead, from which he also received him back as a type.

Heb 11:20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau, even regarding things to come.

Heb 11:21 By faith Jacob, as he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff.

Heb 11:22 By faith Joseph, when he was dying, made mention of the exodus of the sons of Israel, and gave orders concerning his bones.

Heb 11:23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw he was a beautiful child; and they were not afraid of the king's edict.

Heb 11:24 By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter,

Heb 11:25 choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin,

Heb 11:26 considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward.

Heb 11:27 By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured, as seeing Him who is unseen.

Heb 11:28 By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of the blood, so that he who destroyed the firstborn would not touch them.

Heb 11:29 By faith they passed through the Red Sea as though they were passing through dry land; and the Egyptians, when they attempted it, were drowned.

Heb 11:30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days.

Heb 11:31 By faith Rahab the harlot did not perish along with those who were disobedient, after she had welcomed the spies in peace.

Heb 11:32 And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets,

Heb 11:33 who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions,

Heb 11:34 quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight.

Heb 11:35 Women received back their dead by resurrection; and others were tortured, not accepting their release, so that they might obtain a better resurrection;

Heb 11:36 and others experienced mockings and scourgings, yes, also chains and imprisonment.

Heb 11:37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated

Heb 11:38 (men of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground.

Heb 11:39 And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised,

Heb 11:40 because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect. [/Q]

In context.....that quote means something different.

 

[martha]

All this talk of Heaven and its rewards being reserved only for Christians is why I'm not a Christian. People who kill, rape, and destroy others are admitted into Heaven with only the heartfelt acceptance of Jesus as their Saviour.

Yet I will not be there.


There is no responsibilty or consequence for actions. Just say you're sorry, mean it, and off you go. Yet the truest Buddhist monk, the kindest Jewish rabbi, the most dedicated atheist nurse receives eternal suffering, simply for the lack of a confessed faith in Jesus.


The laws of Karma require all to atone personally for what they have done, both good and bad. "Heaven" is acheived when all the accumulated sanskaras of lifetimes have been erased. The soul is reunited with Itself, fully Realized. There is no "good enough," no "sin," there only Is.

 

[BAW]

The God that I believe in isn't vengeful and doesn't keep score...and I refuse to believe that the wonderful, caring "non-believers" in my life are destined for hell or wherever it is they have been told they are going. I think its rather cruel and a bit arrogant for someone to tell them they are literally going to hell if they don't believe.

 

[Kieran McConville]

Martha, I wouldn't say that what you're observing applies to all Christians. What you're describing is the great division between 'faith alone' and 'faith through works' Christians.

 

[martha]

Martha, I wouldn't say that what you're observing applies to all Christians. What you're describing is the great division between 'faith alone' and 'faith through works' Christians.

Tell me more.

 

[Kieran McConville]

What's to tell? I think a short history of the Reformation (there must be one on the web somewhere) would probably lay it out.

My personal theory is that the early Protestants reacted so far against the corrupt (then) Catholic practice of 'indulgences' that faith alone became the overriding issue... hence the cliche of the redneck murdering bastard who goes to heaven because he 'believes'. Of course it's all very complex and I'm just typing out loud here.

 

[Liesje]

Tell me more.

I'm a Calvinist which is a type of Protestant so that means I believe in justification through faith alone. My faith/acceptance of Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior is the ONLY guarantee. This doesn't mean I don't have to do good works and live a respectable life, it means that these works are NOT the way to Salvation.

I *think* Catholicism is more of a faith-works denomination. But by "works" I mean religious rituals/sacramental means of Salvation (baptism, penance, Eucharist, etc).

The Protestant traditions to not believe that sacramental works are necessary for salvation, thus our only sacraments are baptism and Lord's Supper, because those were the only two performed by Jesus. They are more of physical symbols/representations of faith. But that last statement also comes with TONS of variance depending on denomination.

 

[nbcrusader]

Well, let me start by saying......I have FAITH that there is more than one way. My faith is in GOD that this is true. I have faith that those who sincerely seek him will be rewarded. Nothing you quoted indicates that there is NO OTHER WAY.

Ephesians 2:8-9 pretty much cuts out works...

 

[Liesje]

What's to tell? I think a short history of the Reformation (there must be one on the web somewhere) would probably lay it out.

My personal theory is that the early Protestants reacted so far against the corrupt (then) Catholic practice of 'indulgences' that faith alone became the overriding issue... hence the cliche of the redneck murdering bastard who goes to heaven because he 'believes'. Of course it's all very complex and I'm just typing out loud here.

OK, since I have an exam on this next week, I'll bust out the religion notes and give it a go...

Lade Medieval Catholicism believed that certain sacraments (the "works" here) physically changed you. These were baptism, confirmation, and ordination. God sort of stamped a mark on your heart and your will became intertwined with God's such that your entire character/personality was altered.

Luther was the first major figure to have beef w/ Catholicism, first for their excessive sale of indulgences (you could buy your way into heave/ pay $$$ for sins instead of penance). Luther opposed "infused grace", the idea that certain sacraments physically change you. He said grace/salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ alone. Luther also refused to recognize James or Hwbrews b/c they focus on works ("Faith w/o works is dead.").

To Be Continued...

 

[Liesje]

.....

Luther's main points:

Justification - thru faith alone

Theology of Glory vs. Theology of the Cross - "scholastic theology"/humanism glorifies human reason, arrogance, pride, etc. and Jesus' life and death should be the central focus

Sola Scriptura - the Bible alone is God's authority, not clergy or scholars. All people should have access to the Bible.

Vernacular Preaching - pushes aside emphesis on sacraments and places it on Scripture

Reject Externals - indulgences, monasticism, clerical celebacy are all unimportant and tend to divide Christians. Ignore relics, saints, pergatory

Availability of Vernacular Bible - translate out of Latin so ALL people can read, NOT just clergy and scholars


There. those are the major theological differences b/w Luther (first wave of Reformation) and Catholicism. If you need explanation of the rest of the Reformation (Zwingli and Calvin) I can do that too I suppose.

 

[martha]

But this:

The problem with multiple "truths" is that it essentially make Jesus Christ a liar.

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6

God made the plan simple, so no one can take selfish pride in their faith:

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

God makes the decision. We cannot earn it ourselves. We should never try and play gatekeeper.

is what I'm talking about. Jesus is IT for Christians. No matter what they do, if they are true and professed Christians, they go to Heaven. I'm not, so I don't, no matter what I do. Right?

 

[Screaming Flower]

not all christians think that all other christians get a one-way ticket to heaven just for professing their faith.

 

[Liesje]

Jesus is IT for Christians. No matter what they do, if they are true and professed Christians, they go to Heaven. I'm not, so I don't, no matter what I do. Right?

if "true" and "professed" Christians means they have accepted Jesus and Lord and Savior and accepted that it is through His grace ALONE that they are saved, then yes.

 

[Liesje]

not all christians think that all other christians get a one-way ticket to heaven just for professing their faith.

In my church, Profession of Faith is just a public affirmation of your faith and means you become a full member of the church. It's definitely NOT a means of salvation. That is between you and God/Jesus.

 

[bonosloveslave]

Dread, how do you interpret John 14:6?

"Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (my emphasis)

This is actually from the same discussion with the disciples you initially mentioned, just after He made the comment about His Father's house having many rooms...

 

[martha]

not all christians think that all other christians get a one-way ticket to heaven just for professing their faith.

So, do some Christians go to Hell for their conduct?

 

[Screaming Flower]

In my church, Profession of Faith is just a public affirmation of your faith and means you become a full member of the church. It's definitely NOT a means of salvation. That is between you and God/Jesus.

i think that is kind of what i said. sorry if my wording didn't make sense.

 

[martha]

if "true" and "professed" Christians means they have accepted Jesus and Lord and Savior and accepted that it is through His grace ALONE that they are saved, then yes.

So, they can murder and then go to Heaven?

 

[Liesje]

So, do some Christians go to Hell for their conduct?

oh yes

 

[Liesje]

i think that is kind of what i said. sorry if my wording didn't make sense.

oh, sorry, I didn't mean to say you were wrong. I quoted it b/c I agreed and wanted to give an example.

 

[anitram]

Yes, Catholics believe you need faith and works to get to "heaven." The reason Luther disagreed is because in medieval times, this meant that you'd need to funnel money into the Church in order for your soul to be saved. There are stories of priests walking around with cans and when you would drop a coin inside, on behalf of a dead relative, when the coin hit the bottom of the can they would say "Now you can hear Aunt Marge's soul escaping purgatory."

It is also Catholic dogma that non-Christians can be saved, it is summed up as this:

"5. The non-Christian may not be blamed for his ignorance of Christ and his Church; salvation is open to him also, if he seeks God sincerely and if he follows the commands of his conscience, for through this means the Holy Ghost acts upon all men; this divine action is not confined within the limited boundaries of the visible Church."

That is from the 2nd Vatican Ecumenical Council, if anyone is interested.

I agree with this view, although I am a lapsed Catholic.

 

[Liesje]

So, they can murder and then go to Heaven?

Yes, ANYONE (even Hitler I supposed) can go to Heaven, otherwise it's not fair.