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Old 03-06-2004, 05:33 PM   #166
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Originally posted by paxetaurora
Actually, Vatican II did. Vatican II even went so far as to say that non-Christians are not necessarily doomed to hell. Many Catholics might still believe that Protestants and non-Christians are going to hell, but they are the minority among laypersons and an even smaller minority among the clergy, the religious, and Catholic theologians. The official teaching of the Church is that Heaven is not only open to Roman Catholic Christians.
I may be wrong, but during an effort to draw common ground between Catholic and Portestant denominations a few years back, this issue was raised again and the Catholic church never affirmed a repudiation of the declaration of anathema (this was from the Council of Trent).

I need to dig up the material I have from this....
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Old 03-06-2004, 05:35 PM   #167
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You will have to, because I just posted official Church documents that seem to repudiate it pretty well.
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Old 03-06-2004, 06:06 PM   #168
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So Protestants believe that only people who believe in Jesus get into heaven?
Think of it this way: we all sin, right? Even if you (not YOU personally, but anyone) don't care for religion, I think EVERYONE can admit that they've done something bad. Nobody is pure. But God/Jesus can take away the bad and make you pure and whole. This is the gift of Grace. The GIFT of salvation. As with any gift, you have to accept it for it to work. And you can't exactly accept a gift from Jesus if you don't believe in Him, right? So yes, anyone who accepts the Grace of Jesus gets into Heaven. But "believing in Jesus" does NOT mean Christian, Elect, etc, ALL it means is that you accept His Grace for your salvation, you accept His gift.
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Old 03-06-2004, 06:27 PM   #169
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Originally posted by beli
If Anitram is Catholic and LivLov is Calvin, what denomination are NBCrusader and Dreadsox please? (They sound like their on opposite ends of the spectrum). Im trying to untangle the different denominations in my head. Apologies for my ignorance.
Now that I have reread it....

I am not certain we are on completely oppiosite ends of the spectrum. I have tremendous respect for NB and his beliefs.
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Old 03-06-2004, 07:04 PM   #170
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Thanks to everyone for putting a label on their particular brand of Christianity. It was a personal question I asked so I do appreciate your answers. I think Im going to need a spreadsheet to work it all out though!

Moonlit Angel thanks for explaining the Unitarian church. A lot of Athiests are married in this church and I have never understood why, until now

LivLuv, this grace business, Im still not getting it. How do you accept a gift from Jesus without believing in him? Sorry. Maybe I should start a new thread - Stupid Questions About Christianity.

edited to add: I think I will start another thread so I dont derail BonosLoveSlaves heaven thread.
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Old 03-06-2004, 07:08 PM   #171
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Originally posted by beli
Thanks to everyone for putting a label on their particular brand of Christianity. It was a personal question I asked so I do appreciate your answers. I think Im going to need a spreadsheet to work it all out though!

Moonlit Angel thanks for explaining the Unitarian church. A lot of Athiests are married in this church and I have never understood why, until now

LivLuv, this grace business, Im still not getting it. How do you accept a gift from Jesus without believing in him? Sorry. Maybe I should start a new thread - Stupid Questions About Christianity.
LOL....You could start a thread like this on Catholicism....there are sooo many things that can be asked.

The Unitarian Church is the Church of the founding fathers. Interestingly enough, if you come to Plymouth, MA the Unitarian Church is built on the site of the fort/meeting house that the Pilgrims built.
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Old 03-06-2004, 07:11 PM   #172
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Originally posted by beli
Moonlit Angel thanks for explaining the Unitarian church. A lot of Athiests are married in this church and I have never understood why, until now
No problem. . Happy to clear up things for you.

Angela
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Old 03-06-2004, 08:00 PM   #173
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Originally posted by Screaming Flower
very well said pax. i feel like i always agree with you.

in my sixteen years of catholic education i have never learned or been told that people of other religions, let alone christian denominations, are going to hell. like pax said, there are certainly people around who likely think such things, but they appear to be in the minority.
Never have I heard these words taught nor uttered in ANY Catholic Church that I have attended.

That said......

During my 5 Years attending Eastern Nazarene College I was told NUMEROUS times that I and other Catholics on Campus were going to hell for many reasons.

I LOVED the fact that I was able to get A's in the religion classes because I was able to understand Christian Tradition and Catholicism.
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Old 03-06-2004, 08:25 PM   #174
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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic


Think of it this way: we all sin, right? Even if you (not YOU personally, but anyone) don't care for religion, I think EVERYONE can admit that they've done something bad.
Acknowledging that I do "something bad" now and again does not constitute a belief in the doctrine of sin.

I do not sin. I do not believe in sin. The things I do which you would consider "sin," I consider to be actions that produce negative karma and sanskaras.

Which leads me to a much more serious consideration of my actions, and more responsibilty for them, since nothing can absolve me from the consequences of those actions. I cannot ask for forgiveness and they all disappear.


But then, by my own admission, I have no further business in this thread. I'm simply clarifying my points and pushing others to clarify theirs.
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Old 03-06-2004, 08:46 PM   #175
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Originally posted by martha

I do not believe in sin.
What is Murder then? I am asking only to clarify...it is just bad Karma?
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Old 03-06-2004, 08:48 PM   #176
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What happens when the lines arenít so clearly cut? I grew up in the outback and the Quaker missionaries would blow into town from time to time to use as a base to go and preach to the Aboriginals. The Quakers obviously thought they were doing the right thing, but they made the Aboriginals ill with the diseases they carried. It was only in the last 10 years or so that there was Ďfirst contactí with the last of the fullbloods. Ie up until recently we still had Aboriginals who had never seen white people. There is lots of historical evidence of this kind of activity happening in many countries (and not just Quakers but members of many different Christian denominations).

From the Quakers point of view, Iím presuming, they thought they were doing good work for God. From the communitiesí point of view, we thought they were annoying and couldnít wait for them to pack up their felt frogs and leave. The impact on the Aboriginals was more severe. Do people who kill people in the name of the Lord get into heaven?
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Old 03-06-2004, 08:57 PM   #177
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Quote:
Originally posted by martha
Acknowledging that I do "something bad" now and again does not constitute a belief in the doctrine of sin.

I do not sin. I do not believe in sin. The things I do which you would consider "sin," I consider to be actions that produce negative karma and sanskaras.

Which leads me to a much more serious consideration of my actions, and more responsibilty for them, since nothing can absolve me from the consequences of those actions. I cannot ask for forgiveness and they all disappear.


But then, by my own admission, I have no further business in this thread. I'm simply clarifying my points and pushing others to clarify theirs.
Interesting way of looking at things, martha. Some good points raised here (particularly in the third part of this post).

Angela
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Old 03-06-2004, 10:08 PM   #178
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Originally posted by martha
But then, by my own admission, I have no further business in this thread. I'm simply clarifying my points and pushing others to clarify theirs.
I would hope you stay. While the thread references heaven, I think any concept afterlife should be discussed.
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Old 03-06-2004, 10:12 PM   #179
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Heh, never mind.

I got my dinner (at 10 pm) and now feel much better.
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Old 03-06-2004, 11:29 PM   #180
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Quote:
Originally posted by beli
LivLuv, this grace business, Im still not getting it. How do you accept a gift from Jesus without believing in him? Sorry. Maybe I should start a new thread - Stupid Questions About Christianity.
They're not stupid questions, don't worry. You're right, you don't accept the gift without believing. I was just trying to explain in in simple non-religious terms. When (some) Christians say the way to salvation is through Jesus alone, what that means is accepting the gift of God's grace (the grace = Jesus dying for EVERY one of us and taking away our guilt and sin). So you don't get to Heaven for believing in Jesus, but you have to go a step farther and acknowledge your brokenness and accept God's grace through Jesus. Believing is the first step.
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