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Old 03-06-2004, 09:44 AM   #151
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram
Sura 3:85: If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to God), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).
Doesn't this sum it up for you? Even if you didn't have this verse, a non-Muslim would still be required to fulfill the five pillars of Islam - and even then there is only a chance that Allah let's you into paradise. But Sura 3:85 pretty much wipes non-Musilms out of the equation.

Would you seriously put your hope in this?
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Old 03-06-2004, 10:01 AM   #152
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"Love God with all your heart, and love one another as I have loved you." The greatest commandment, I feel sums it up.
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Old 03-06-2004, 12:03 PM   #153
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Originally posted by Angela Harlem
Finally. Someone said it lol. Actually, I'd ammend that Dread to all churches feel they know the absolute truth. If they dont, there is no point. Naturally they and the members of each are going to think they are correct. There is nothing wrong with feeling you are 100% right and have found the truth. That is faith. To tell someone else they are a sinner or are going to some place other than heaven or are just simply wrong is so utterly offensive to me. No one knows the will of God or whatever higher entity it is. No one can say they KNOW, it is only ever faith.

I'm not quite sure why this bothers me as much as it does.
Exactly.

Dread...you've been to a Unitarian church, eh? My beliefs tend to fall along the lines of the Unitarians. .

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Old 03-06-2004, 12:09 PM   #154
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Could you describe the Unitarian beliefs and/or how yours run parallel?
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Old 03-06-2004, 12:19 PM   #155
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader

Would you seriously put your hope in this?
Did you even read the other two verses?

Islamic scholars agree they are contradictory. You only picked the one that serves your argument. You can pick this sura until the cows come home, but without the other two, you are not looking at the entire picture.

I am not putting hope into anything. I am telling you from a scholastic view, having studied this, that the Qu'ran can be interpreted in two ways. You have chosen to ignore one way; that is not my problem now is it?
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Old 03-06-2004, 12:46 PM   #156
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Could you describe the Unitarian beliefs and/or how yours run parallel?
Sure. .

Unitarian Universalist beliefs:

The two religious organizations that became the "UUA" were originally viewed by the public as Christian churches who were defined largely by their heretical beliefs about the nature of God and the afterlife. However a gradual change started during the 19th century and continues today. It is now a multi-faith religious group.

Emerson was a powerful force in starting this change. His Divinity School Address emphasized the importance of intellectual freedom and reason. Most modern day Unitarian Universalists share the following beliefs that:

-Each person, because of her/his humanity inherently has dignity and worth.
-Each person seek his/her unique spiritual path, based upon their personal life experience, the use of reason and meditation, the findings of science and her/his fundamental beliefs concerning deity, humanity, and the rest of the universe.
-The prime function of a clergyperson and congregation is to help the individual members to grow spiritually.
-All the great religions of the world, and their sacred texts, have worth.
-There should be no barrier to membership, such as compulsory adherence to a creed.
-Their lives, their congregations and association are governed by the concepts of democracy, religious freedom and religious tolerance
-Much of their effort should be directed towards civil rights, achieving equality of treatment for everyone regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, etc. They have played a major role in these battles for equal rights, in spite of their relatively small numbers.

Unitarian Universalist Statement of Principles and Purposes:

The UUA adopted the following Principles and Purposes in 1997:

The Principles of the Unitarian Universalist Association

"We, the member congregations of the Unitarian Universalist Association, covenant to affirm and promote:

-The inherent worth and dignity of every person
-Justice, equity and compassion in human relations
-Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations
-A free and responsible search for truth and meaning
-The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large
-The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all
-Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part

The living tradition we share draws from many sources:

-Direct experience of that transcending mystery and wonder, affirmed in all cultures, which moves us to a renewal of the spirit and an openness to the forces which create and uphold life
-Words and deeds of prophetic women and men which challenge us to confront powers and structures of evil with justice, compassion, and the transforming power of love
-Wisdom from the world's religions which inspires us in our ethical and spiritual life
-Jewish and Christian teachings which call us to respond to God's love by loving our neighbors as ourselves
-Humanist teachings which counsel us to keep the guidance of reason and the results of science, and warn us against idolatries of the mind and spirit
-Spiritual teachings of Earth-centered traditions which celebrate the sacred circle of life and instruct us to live in harmony with the rhythms of nature.

Grateful for the religious pluralism which enriches and ennobles our faith, we are inspired to deepen our understanding and expand our vision. As free congregations we enter into this covenant, promising to one another our mutual trust and support."

The Purposes of the Unitarian Universalist Association:

"The Unitarian Universalist Association shall devote its resources to and exercise its corporate powers for religious, educational and humanitarian purposes. The primary purpose of the Association is to serve the needs of its member congregations, organize new congregations, extend and strengthen Unitarian Universalist institutions and implement its principles.

The Association declares and affirms its special responsibility, and that of its member societies and organizations, to promote the full participation of persons in all of its and their activities and in the full range of human endeavor without regard to race, color, sex, disability, affectional or sexual orientation, age, or national origin and without requiring adherence to any particular interpretation of religion or to any particular religious belief or creed.

Nothing herein shall be deemed to infringe upon the individual freedom of belief which is inherent in the Universalist and Unitarian heritages or to conflict with any statement of purpose, covenant, or bond of union used by any society unless such is used as a creedal test."

Taken from here: http://www.religioustolerance.org

This is the faith where my beliefs tend to fit the best. I don't really see anything in here I disagree with.

Angela
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Old 03-06-2004, 12:53 PM   #157
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


But it is still one of many Catholic teachings. The Vatican has never repudiated the belief that Protestants are a anethema - cursed and doomed to hell.
Actually, Vatican II did. Vatican II even went so far as to say that non-Christians are not necessarily doomed to hell. Many Catholics might still believe that Protestants and non-Christians are going to hell, but they are the minority among laypersons and an even smaller minority among the clergy, the religious, and Catholic theologians. The official teaching of the Church is that Heaven is not only open to Roman Catholic Christians.

I come from both Protestant (Lutheran, to be exact) and Roman Catholic backgrounds. Right now I attend a Roman Catholic college, attend Roman Catholic Masses, and am taking theology classes from Roman Catholic priests and theologians, so I do know what I am talking about. Trust me when I say that no Roman Catholic priest or theologian has ever said to me that non-Catholics are going to hell; quite the opposite, in fact. The entire theology department at my school is composed of inclusivists and pluralists (meaning that none of them believe that non-Catholics are automatically going to hell).

The Catholic Church, incidentally, gets a lot of bad raps here in FYM--and some of them are not undeserved. The Vatican should have come out against the Holocaust and the Nazis from day one. It is preposterous to me that so much as a same-sex kiss would be sinful, but a priest who molests a child might conceivably continue to remain in the clergy. I strongly disagree with not allowing women to be priests (which is why I will probably get married in the Lutheran church that the Protestant branch of my family belongs to, where one of the pastors is a woman, right on). But the Catholic Church is also perhaps the biggest social justice organization in the world, and some of the strides made against poverty and tyranny by the Catholic Church have been extraordinary. By far the biggest organization making the most headway for the growing Hispanic population in America is the Catholic Church. It upsets me that every slight against evangelical Protestants is catalogued and repeated, but that the Catholic Church is an acceptable scapegoat.

To reiterate: Official Church teaching=all non-Catholics NOT automatically damned. Some Catholics believe this, but not most laypeople and certainly not most clergy and religious. Thank you.
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Old 03-06-2004, 01:14 PM   #158
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Do you really think God intended to make it this difficult? If you look back at all the posts in here and you see people discuss different religions, denominations, dogma, scripture, etc. you'd think that only the most educated would get into heaven, yet the most simple, the most humble, the most innocent, the children they are the closest to God that I know. Don't you think we make it more difficult for ourselves sometimes?
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Old 03-06-2004, 01:27 PM   #159
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very well said pax. i feel like i always agree with you.

in my sixteen years of catholic education i have never learned or been told that people of other religions, let alone christian denominations, are going to hell. like pax said, there are certainly people around who likely think such things, but they appear to be in the minority.
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Old 03-06-2004, 02:48 PM   #160
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Thanks for that Pax! I've unfortuneately been to busy with midterms to really dig into this thread, but thanks for saying what I wanted to say.

sd
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Old 03-06-2004, 04:17 PM   #161
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Do you really think God intended to make it this difficult? If you look back at all the posts in here and you see people discuss different religions, denominations, dogma, scripture, etc. you'd think that only the most educated would get into heaven, yet the most simple, the most humble, the most innocent, the children they are the closest to God that I know. Don't you think we make it more difficult for ourselves sometimes?
Once you get to the Pearly Gates, you get a 3-hour theology test. I hear you need a 65% to get in.

Seriously though, here is what Peter Kreeft and Ronald Tacelli, a pair of Catholic philosophy profs at Boston College, have to say in their book "Handbook of Christian Apologetics":

Quote:
To summarize our solution: Socrates (or any other pagan) could seek God, could repent of his sins, and could obscurely believe in and accept the God he knew partially and obscurely, and therefore he could be saved -- or damned, if he refused to seek, repent and believe. There is just enough light and enough opportunity, enough knowledge and enough free choice, to make everyone responsible before God. God is just. And a just God judges justly, not unjustly; that is, he judges according to the knowledge each individual has, not according to a knowledge they do not have (see James 3:1).
Makes sense to me.
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Old 03-06-2004, 04:29 PM   #162
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedracer


Once you get to the Pearly Gates, you get a 3-hour theology test. I hear you need a 65% to get in.
Damnitt, I was never good at standardized tests. Do you think we'll need shoes in heaven? I could just write the answers on my soles and sneak a peak.


Quote:
Originally posted by speedracer


Seriously though, here is what Peter Kreeft and Ronald Tacelli, a pair of Catholic philosophy profs at Boston College, have to say in their book "Handbook of Christian Apologetics":



Makes sense to me.
I like that.
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Old 03-06-2004, 05:18 PM   #163
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For more on this, Kreeft's book, Socrates Meets Jesus, is an entertaining as well as enlightening read.
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Old 03-06-2004, 05:22 PM   #164
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram


Did you even read the other two verses?

Islamic scholars agree they are contradictory. You only picked the one that serves your argument. You can pick this sura until the cows come home, but without the other two, you are not looking at the entire picture.

I am not putting hope into anything. I am telling you from a scholastic view, having studied this, that the Qu'ran can be interpreted in two ways. You have chosen to ignore one way; that is not my problem now is it?
If you read my post, you would have realized that by throwing out the one quote, the other two still would not guaranty a non-Muslim anything. And add in the other requirements of Islam (since you want to look at the whole picture) it makes the path for the non-Muslim even worse.

By not putting hope into anything, does this mean you have no assurances of eternal salvation?
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Old 03-06-2004, 05:27 PM   #165
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From Unitatis Redintegratio:

...some and even very many of the significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church: the written word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, and visible elements too. All of these, which come from Christ and lead back to Christ, belong by right to the one Church of Christ.

The brethren divided from us also use many liturgical actions of the Christian religion. These most certainly can truly engender a life of grace in ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or Community. These liturgical actions must be regarded as capable of giving access to the community of salvation.

It follows that the separated Churches(23) and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church.


And from Nostra Aetate:

From ancient times down to the present, there is found among various peoples a certain perception of that hidden power which hovers over the course of things and over the events of human history; at times some indeed have come to the recognition of a Supreme Being, or even of a Father. This perception and recognition penetrates their lives with a profound religious sense.

Religions, however, that are bound up with an advanced culture have struggled to answer the same questions by means of more refined concepts and a more developed language. Thus in Hinduism, men contemplate the divine mystery and express it through an inexhaustible abundance of myths and through searching philosophical inquiry. They seek freedom from the anguish of our human condition either through ascetical practices or profound meditation or a flight to God with love and trust. Again, Buddhism, in its various forms, realizes the radical insufficiency of this changeable world; it teaches a way by which men, in a devout and confident spirit, may be able either to acquire the state of perfect liberation, or attain, by their own efforts or through higher help, supreme illumination. Likewise, other religions found everywhere try to counter the restlessness of the human heart, each in its own manner, by proposing "ways," comprising teachings, rules of life, and sacred rites. The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men. Indeed, she proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ "the way, the truth, and the life" (John 14:6), in whom men may find the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself.(4)

The Church, therefore, exhorts her sons, that through dialogue and collaboration with the followers of other religions, carried out with prudence and love and in witness to the Christian faith and life, they recognize, preserve and promote the good things, spiritual and moral, as well as the socio-cultural values found among these men.

3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom.

4. As the sacred synod searches into the mystery of the Church, it remembers the bond that spiritually ties the people of the New Covenant to Abraham's stock.

Thus the Church of Christ acknowledges that, according to God's saving design, the beginnings of her faith and her election are found already among the Patriarchs, Moses and the prophets. She professes that all who believe in Christ-Abraham's sons according to faith (6)-are included in the same Patriarch's call, and likewise that the salvation of the Church is mysteriously foreshadowed by the chosen people's exodus from the land of bondage. The Church, therefore, cannot forget that she received the revelation of the Old Testament through the people with whom God in His inexpressible mercy concluded the Ancient Covenant. Nor can she forget that she draws sustenance from the root of that well-cultivated olive tree onto which have been grafted the wild shoots, the Gentiles.(7) Indeed, the Church believes that by His cross Christ, Our Peace, reconciled Jews and Gentiles. making both one in Himself.(8)

The Church keeps ever in mind the words of the Apostle about his kinsmen: "theirs is the sonship and the glory and the covenants and the law and the worship and the promises; theirs are the fathers and from them is the Christ according to the flesh" (Rom. 9:4-5), the Son of the Virgin Mary. She also recalls that the Apostles, the Church's main-stay and pillars, as well as most of the early disciples who proclaimed Christ's Gospel to the world, sprang from the Jewish people.

As Holy Scripture testifies, Jerusalem did not recognize the time of her visitation,(9) nor did the Jews in large number, accept the Gospel; indeed not a few opposed its spreading.(10) Nevertheless, God holds the Jews most dear for the sake of their Fathers; He does not repent of the gifts He makes or of the calls He issues-such is the witness of the Apostle.(11) In company with the Prophets and the same Apostle, the Church awaits that day, known to God alone, on which all peoples will address the Lord in a single voice and "serve him shoulder to shoulder" (Soph. 3:9).(12)

Since the spiritual patrimony common to Christians and Jews is thus so great, this sacred synod wants to foster and recommend that mutual understanding and respect which is the fruit, above all, of biblical and theological studies as well as of fraternal dialogues.

True, the Jewish authorities and those who followed their lead pressed for the death of Christ;(13) still, what happened in His passion cannot be charged against all the Jews, without distinction, then alive, nor against the Jews of today. Although the Church is the new people of God, the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures. All should see to it, then, that in catechetical work or in the preaching of the word of God they do not teach anything that does not conform to the truth of the Gospel and the spirit of Christ.

Furthermore, in her rejection of every persecution against any man, the Church, mindful of the patrimony she shares with the Jews and moved not by political reasons but by the Gospel's spiritual love, decries hatred, persecutions, displays of anti-Semitism, directed against Jews at any time and by anyone.

Besides, as the Church has always held and holds now, Christ underwent His passion and death freely, because of the sins of men and out of infinite love, in order that all may reach salvation. It is, therefore, the burden of the Church's preaching to proclaim the cross of Christ as the sign of God's all-embracing love and as the fountain from which every grace flows.

5. We cannot truly call on God, the Father of all, if we refuse to treat in a brotherly way any man, created as he is in the image of God. Man's relation to God the Father and his relation to men his brothers are so linked together that Scripture says: "He who does not love does not know God" (1 John 4:8).

No foundation therefore remains for any theory or practice that leads to discrimination between man and man or people and people, so far as their human dignity and the rights flowing from it are concerned.

The Church reproves, as foreign to the mind of Christ, any discrimination against men or harassment of them because of their race, color, condition of life, or religion. On the contrary, following in the footsteps of the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, this sacred synod ardently implores the Christian faithful to "maintain good fellowship among the nations" (1 Peter 2:12), and, if possible, to live for their part in peace with all men,(14) so that they may truly be sons of the Father who is in heaven.(15)


You all know that I hate to quote at length here in FYM, but I felt those two document excerpts were important.

There are many places on the Web where the Vatican II documents are archived. These I got from http://www.cin.org/vatiidoc.html (Catholic Information Network).
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