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Old 03-05-2004, 10:48 PM   #136
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Quote:
Originally posted by martha


According to Christians. Remember, most of the planet are not Christian.


We should talk.
I feel like I'm repeating myself ad nauseum, but martha, that's just not true. SOME Christians believe this to be the case, but not only do others not believe it, but actually the majority don't.
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Old 03-05-2004, 11:42 PM   #137
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Ok.
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Old 03-05-2004, 11:59 PM   #138
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antiram I don't think you're quite right about all Catholics believing non-Christians to be saved. There are still a fair number of Catholics the world over who think Protestants are going to hell, let alone people of other religions. You're making a blanket statement about Catholicism in the same way you accuse others here about making balnket statements about Christianity. Furthermore it's not just right wing evangelical Protestants who follow the through Christ alone belief. My Church the Presbyterian Church in Canada while it is fairly conseravtive isn't what you'd call far right, nor could it ever be accused of being evangelical (the majority of members are far too uptight for that sort of thing - members within the church haven't nick named it "God's frozen chosen" for nothing) yet it follows salvation through Christ alone. The United Church of Canada split right down the middle and threw out a moderator over his declaration that there were other paths to salvation than Christ (well that and homosexuality). And the United Church is a pretty liberal denomination (it allows gay ministers).
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Old 03-06-2004, 12:04 AM   #139
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Ok.
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Old 03-06-2004, 12:07 AM   #140
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I'm talking about Catholic dogma, as per the 2nd Vatican Council. You probably do have Catholics who aren't aware of it, sure. But it's still Church teaching, which differentiates it from the Protestant camp.

I honestly don't concern myself much, I don't attend Catholic Church, nor do I see myself as a practicing Christian. Frankly, nothing turns me off Christianity like some Christians do.
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Old 03-06-2004, 12:28 AM   #141
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Okay, I need help here. If we just stick to the Catholic denomination for a moment. According to this thread, if I have the right end of the stick, Catholics are more broad minded as to who gets into heaven? How come its the Catholics that say people who believe in Jesus/God who suicide arent going to heaven.

(not a criticism, Im just trying to 'vocalise' (typealise?) my confusion.)
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Old 03-06-2004, 02:26 AM   #142
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"Call men sinners? It is a sin to call men sinners!"

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It fills my heart with joy unspeakable to rise in response to the grand words of welcome given to us by you. I thank you in the name of the most ancient order of monks the world has ever seen, of which the Buddha was only a member. I thank you in the name of the Mother of religions, of which Buddhism and Jainism are but branches; and I thank you, finally, in the name of the millions and millions of Hindu people…

I am proud to belong to a religion that has taught the world both tolerance and universal acceptance…We believe not only in universal tolerance but we accept all religions to be true. I will quote to you, brothers, a few lines from a hymn which every Hindu child repeats every day. I feel that the very spirit of this hymn, which I have repeated from my earliest boyhood, which is every day repeated by millions and millions of men in India, has at last come to be realized. "As the different streams, having their sources in different places, all mingle their water in the sea; O Lord, so the different paths which men take through different tendencies, various though they appear, crooked or straight, all lead to Thee."

The present convention, which is one of the most august assemblies ever held, is in itself an indication, a declaration to the world of the wonderful doctrine preached in the Bhagavad Gita: "Whosoever comes to Me, through whatsoever form I reach him, all are struggling through paths that in the end always lead to Me."

Sectarianism, bigotry and its horrible descendant, fanaticism, have possessed long this beautiful earth. It has filled the earth with violence, drenched it often and often with human blood, destroyed civilizations, and sent whole nations into despair. But its time has come, and I fervently believe that the bell that tolled this morning in honor of the representatives of the different religions of the earth at this Parliament is the death-knell to all fanaticism, that it is the death-knell to all persecution with the sword or the pen, and to all uncharitable feelings between brethren winding their way to the same goal, but through different ways.
Swami Vivekananda and The 1893 World Parliament of Religions http://www.namastebooks.com/
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Old 03-06-2004, 02:53 AM   #143
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Originally posted by Blacksword
Furthermore it's not just right wing evangelical Protestants who follow the through Christ alone belief.
I don't even know what is considered a "right wing evangelical Protestant", but I believe the above.
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Old 03-06-2004, 02:57 AM   #144
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Originally posted by beli
According to this thread, if I have the right end of the stick, Catholics are more broad minded as to who gets into heaven?
Well, you can make arguments either way. True Calvinists believe in the idea of "elect" (which is much more complex than it sounds, so please people don't automatically assume this concept has negative connotations if you are not familiar with it) and I think people who still have rigid beliefs in "election" are few and far between. But then again, if Catholicism is a faith-works religion and Protestantism is only thru faith, then you could argue that salvation here is more inclusive because you don't have to be baptized, do penance, other good works, etc. to go to Heaven, you only have to accept the Grace of Jesus.
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Old 03-06-2004, 03:23 AM   #145
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So Protestants believe that only people who believe in Jesus get into heaven? But Catholics believe more people than just the global minority of people who believe in Jesus will get into heaven? Or am I barking up the wrong tree? Theres so many concepts in this thread that are new to me (faithworks, elect, etc) that my head is spinning.

If Anitram is Catholic and LivLov is Calvin, what denomination are NBCrusader and Dreadsox please? (They sound like their on opposite ends of the spectrum). Im trying to untangle the different denominations in my head. Apologies for my ignorance.
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Old 03-06-2004, 07:16 AM   #146
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I was raised a Catholic. I have attended MANY churches since I turned 18. Nazarene, Congregational, Assemblies of God, Unitarian, Catholic again, and now Episcopal (Anglican).

One thing I believe is that TOO many churches believe that they KNOW the absolute TRUTH. To me, this is putting limits on GOD.
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Old 03-06-2004, 08:18 AM   #147
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Finally. Someone said it lol. Actually, I'd ammend that Dread to all churches feel they know the absolute truth. If they dont, there is no point. Naturally they and the members of each are going to think they are correct. There is nothing wrong with feeling you are 100% right and have found the truth. That is faith. To tell someone else they are a sinner or are going to some place other than heaven or are just simply wrong is so utterly offensive to me. No one knows the will of God or whatever higher entity it is. No one can say they KNOW, it is only ever faith.

I'm not quite sure why this bothers me as much as it does.
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Old 03-06-2004, 09:35 AM   #148
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram
I'm talking about Catholic dogma, as per the 2nd Vatican Council. You probably do have Catholics who aren't aware of it, sure. But it's still Church teaching, which differentiates it from the Protestant camp.
But it is still one of many Catholic teachings. The Vatican has never repudiated the belief that Protestants are a anethema - cursed and doomed to hell.
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Old 03-06-2004, 09:36 AM   #149
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
One thing I believe is that TOO many churches believe that they KNOW the absolute TRUTH. To me, this is putting limits on GOD.
Are these each separate and distinct Truths or is there a common Scriptural truth with different applications and methods of worship?
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Old 03-06-2004, 09:39 AM   #150
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Quote:
Originally posted by beli
If Anitram is Catholic and LivLov is Calvin, what denomination are NBCrusader and Dreadsox please? (They sound like their on opposite ends of the spectrum). Im trying to untangle the different denominations in my head. Apologies for my ignorance.
For what its worth, I am an elder at a Presbyterian church. I was not raised a Presbyterian nor would I use the term Presbyterian to describe my faith.
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