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Old 10-02-2004, 09:15 AM   #46
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AussieU2fanman, what is your suggestion then to bring peace and justice to the world?

If everyone gave up on an idea, especially a GOOD IDEA simply because it was hard to achieve, then we wouldn't have the better world that Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., Mahatma Gandhi, Nelson Mandela, Mother Teresa, Daw Aung San Suu Kyi, the Dalai Lama, Cesar Chavez, Rev. Desmond Tutu and even Bono have worked so hard to achieve!

YES - this is a difficult issue to resolve. These issues first have to resolved in ourselves before we can resolve finally in the world.

But just because it's difficult is not enough to give up on a VISION OF A PEACEFUL AND JUST WORLD - it's the only option we have!

Otherwise, we'll destroy each other and this beautiful planet - and that's NOT AN OPTION I care to choose!
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Old 10-02-2004, 09:30 AM   #47
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Jamila looks to God and sees love and tollerance. There are those in this world that look to God and find the exact antithesis. I am far less optimistic about love being of any use when dealing with those with such a vision of the world. Those who massacred the children of Beslan crossed the line - they forfeited their humanity (if you are offended by my opinion on the matter then I will gladly link you to the images and stories and that shaped my perception there are children, knives and rapes - enough said), I would not hesistate in using deadly force to prevent such atrocities from happening again because no matter how much good, how much love you show towards such an opponent they will just continue to mow you down. Religious hatred cannot be weakened by religious love.

Humanity must embrace against a common foe. Lets bring the entire world forward by facing down despotism in all its forms and make the world safe for individuality. In the end I know everything can work out allright when all people regardless of race or religion are allowed to live their lives without opression and fear.
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Old 10-02-2004, 10:19 AM   #48
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Sometimes there are no options. We just have to make do. For the past billion years, war, hatred and inhumanities have existed throughout the world. It will always exists whether you like it or not. There's not going to be a day where suddenly you wake up and everybody is hugging eachother.
No matter what, we are different, and our differences will explode in the form of a bomb blast. Just pick up the pieces after an inetivable fight and move on, just try not to step on that guys turf again!
Believe it or not, I am an optimist! I am an optimist in the sense of what can logically be achieved . I'm sure Martin Luther King made some sort of difference, he was reasonable with his expectations of what he can achieve. Did he try to get the whole world to hold hands? No.
Talk of world peace and love is pure naivety in my mind. It won't happen. And stop praying, God won't make it happen either! REALISM is my ideal, REALISM! Do what you can, not what you want yourself to be able to do.
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Old 10-02-2004, 11:12 AM   #49
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A_Wanderer, I can understand your thoughts and motives. Those who did the massacre in Beslan not only crossed the line, and I agree that in certain cases force is necessary.

This might convince you (and other readers) that my philospohy of Love is not idealistic, not naive, I am talking about everyday reality, not about utopia.

Terrorists are humans. They are, per definitionem, part of the human race, the worst race on this planet, like I have illustrated before.

Your example is only one of so many examples one could make.

Today, the Vatican has canonized Emperor Karl I. This Emperor was responsible for allowing the use of poison gas in World War I. How Christian, how sacred is that?

However, let me illustrate again: Cruelty, hate, intolerance, terrorism, fear,.. can not change the rules of the Universe.

The Universe is created in oneness and unity.

The stars were created by a condensation of atoms; and this condensation is Love.

An electron never wants to be alone (don´t believe me? see scientific articles about spins, elementary particles etc.).

And the kind of Love that has created the stars, also created us.

This is what I believe in.

This is why we should live in social regularity and harmony that resembles the regularity and harmony of the stars.

And this is why all human beings should be one.

That´s why we have to believe in a new society, a society without class segregation, a society where not only the "fittest" survives, but where everyone survives.

A society without segregation in rich and poor. Without exploiters and exploited.

This is the revolution.

Capitalism is a system which is riddled with egoism, selfishness, and individualism; a system that does not know brotherliness, a system that makes it impossible to live and act on the Gospel
- every single moment, in all aspects of real life including business.

It is impossible to put Love into practice in a society that is divided in classes. A society which is seperated in classes, is the negation of Christian Love.

To celebrate an authentic Eucharist, we need a society without classes. We can not go to the same altar for Eucharist, if we are divided in classes, in rich and poor. Apostle Paul said: This is not the altar of the Lord.

I believe that neither the Christian communion, nor the sacrifice, can be truly celebrated, if we don´t implement Love by all means in everyday life.

I believe that revolution can be the evolution in practice of Love: the creation of a system of charity; a system that gives food to the hungry, and clothing to the naked.

"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come" (Hebrews 13-14). This means that we have to search for the society of the future, and to create it.

This new society is the same like the Kingdom of God on Mother Earth.

The Kingdom of God is not utopia.
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Old 10-02-2004, 03:54 PM   #50
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You disarm the atomic bomb

by ending arrogance!

Arrogance is the root of interpersonal nastiness, from the playground to the boardroom to the bedroom...every fucking where.
On the internet too, so it's hard for me to say it without feeling like I'm vibing it in some way by attempting to ask and comment on questions about anything in a "how does one/what is the deal with" kinda format.

And I didn't even feel that this might be theanswer til I saw it here in the precise place interference has been the last week (has it been that long? I have no idea...) dealing with vertigo and htdaab and U2 from a whooole range of perspectives, even of those in it!

Arrogance lives where people think they know what's best for others and *tell* those others instead of showing them something.

Arrogance lives where parents bully the crap out of their kids and silence them and try to mold them because they think they know best.

Arrogance lives where a government gets in the bedrooms or the bookstores of their citizens, or takes over their media.

Bill O'Reilly is arrogance parading as reason and righteousness.
George Bush is arrogance parading as the only way to make things good (and it's so fucking thinly veiled who gets the goods that it's incredible he can get anywhere at all with his pitch)

Terrorists are arrogant, the little ones blowing up buses and cutting off heads, and the big ones planning it all...

And the 'left' who makes posters and hookrugs showing how GB is evil just like UBL or Saddam Hussein are arrogant as well.

Arrogance spawns this crap in our media, how we have no civility, and lack of civility shouldn't be confused with naughty words or even sex.
Oprah gets dissed a lot as silly, but she's got this great un-arrogant vibe happening.
It's especially inspiring when people who the rest of us tend to believe have earned the right to be arrogant don't buy the ticket...

And I'm thinking the way they manage to do that is with love,
because there's really no other way.

Some things make it easier to feel that kind of love. Like having children. Caring for little creatures who need you for everything, and if you're lucky you love them anyway. That helplessness of children can make for a very heavy arrogance trip for the parents, who have this possible domain to lord it over and who can fall into thinking that's indeed what they *should*do, to teach.

But when you get it that you can't teach, you can only help them learn, then you get humbled by your kids. Too often that doesn't happen, or people think you have to be consistent and stay the course and never apologize for fucking up ever, like Mr. Bush told us the other night.

That backfires into all sort of bristling, and everyone's the loser for it.

So, yeah, you disarm the bomb with love,
but I'm feeling the important-to-note middle step is ending
arrogance.
Be a child, understand a child, and just be awkward.
It's damned hard, we can see, because our world can grind the awkward into the dirt and lifts up the arrogant!


cheers all!

and sorry for the long unwieldy post...
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Old 10-02-2004, 07:01 PM   #51
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I say we ban terrorism!!!
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Old 10-03-2004, 12:01 AM   #52
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That would be a great idea (to ban terrorism) but it will not work.

As long as there is injustice and extreme poverty, the climate which produces the anger which leads to people becoming terrorists will not subside and will continue to produce terrorists.

As Bono has mentioned, the more that we in the developed world can SHOW LOVE to the developing world by eradicating extreme poverty and providing life-saving drugs to people who are desparate, the more we CREATE THE ATMOSPHERE in which Love can grow.

When Love can grow, it quickly spreads because everyone is born for Love.

We can accomplish much more for a peaceful world by ACCENTUATING THE POSITIVE, while quietly trying to eliminate the negative.

The cosmos will magnify that which you put your attention to. So if we TRULY want a more peaceful world, WE MUST BECOME PEACE and extend kindness and Love to others.

The negative (hatred, anger, violence, etc) hasn't brought us closer to Peace - isn't it time we GIVE LOVE A CHANCE?

I think it is. TRY IT!
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Old 10-03-2004, 12:26 AM   #53
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I was joking
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Old 10-03-2004, 12:34 AM   #54
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Religious terrorism is not motivated by a sense of poverty, it is pure religious hatred. The hijackers on 9.11 were not poor and uneducated they were well educated and wealthy individuals. They had lived in the west for years, slowly plotting how to bring about the attack. Al Qaeda aims to topple all the regimes in the ME with Islamist ones, obbliterate Israel and drive the Jews into the sea (another Shoah) and when they have achieved that goal they will not stop. For these groups will only end when the entire world is purged of all un-Islamic (by their reckoning, think the blowing up of the ancient Buddha statues in Afghanistan as an example) influences, a glorious peace of the grave if you will. Homocide bombers from the disputed territories come from wealthier families, they are not the dirt poor individuals from Gaza and they are also not Christian. Religious hatred fostered by religious leadership to achieve political goals - it is one of the most powerful tools avaliable, it is something so alien to us today that we must impose our own motivations to bring rationality to such deeds when there is only one, hatred.

Showing love to the world, curing AIDS and opening much of the world up to the benefits of trade and investment are a great thing but it would be futile to justify the actions of madmen because of the absence of such things.

I love peace as much as the next person but I will never accept that we have peace while others suffer under despotic rules, where individuality and fundamental human rights are in many places non-existent. True peace is one where every human being has a life worth living, where every human being can live their lives the way that they want to where every last human being is safe.

If we only fight this war with love we will loose, we must think outside the constraints of almost every other conflict so as to win but not to become a monster at the same time. I know that it sounds fatalist, but it is not. We can make the world a better place, a world where diversity is safe - we may just have to fight for it.

I dont care if anybody is offended by my thoughts on the topic, call me whatever you like because I am holding true to my morals in wanting to see a world free of despotism in all its forms. I must confess that I am intollerant of despotism - this is where somebodies individuality and rights are robbed of them by force. A free world is a safe world and you will never convince me otherwise. How we achieve it is not a clear cut case of kill everyone else, it is a massive undertaking of economic and political reforms, the rewarding of good governance (such as that which does not involve violently suppressing the population) and the encouragement for the voices of moderation withing certain religions which are right now drowned out in a sea of hatred. War is sometimes an option - it should not be the first choice but peace at any price, no way never!
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Old 10-03-2004, 02:22 AM   #55
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I don't know why we are still arguing...Bono flat out said the answer was love in an interview.



WhenHipHop....I really treasured your post.
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Old 10-03-2004, 02:13 PM   #56
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I haven't read up-thread much...not even til now did I see the post right before mine..so I didn't realize we might be arguing...just discussing...but still feel the need to download just this..

sure, yeah, love is crucial, everywhere.

But I can't help but still feel that the anti-arrogance vibe can somehow be really important too.

I can't help but flash on what the old director of my kids' childcare center said when I asked her about how she deals with stuff.
She said it all came down to 2 things
1. do the kindest thing
2. every child is accountable, we all get held responsible to each other

So, yeah, she saw and accepted...as hard as it can be at times..that kids will be cruel to each other, will call each other a name, will grab stuff from one another, will hit each other. That's part of being a child, for some more than others.
But when something like that happens, she gets the two together and helps them brainstorm ways to work it out. asks what they need from each other.
apologies? changed behaviors? sometimes even just looking at each other now after the hurt helps dissolve some of the nastiness.

But they can't just turn from each other. They can't just arrogantly refuse
to address each other.

Arrogance can't stay in play and let love live.

And then there's the love part, which is to find the kindest thing to do.
She feels the vibe, surveys the scene, and decides where the biggest need is, what the biggest hole is. The kindest thing to do is fill that one, not
another one in the name of some kind of tit-for-tat 'fairness' trip.

I don't know about gospel cuz I'm not religious, but I've never been able to
get myself to feel love in the face of behavior that pisses me off without first feeling humble, without first imagining myself in the shoes of that fucking annoying other, without first losing any claim to arrogance or knowledge.
There's just the person there standing there before me, and I have to be naked before them, I can't be dressed up all prettylike.

I wish the UN could be more the preschool director and serve this function,
end arrogance and spread kindness.
that would be nice.

cheers all!
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