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Old 03-24-2004, 01:09 PM   #46
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Re: Re: ergh

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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


I'm not sure where you're from but you can see a big change that education made here in the U.S. on racial issues. Yes we still have a large imbalance and we still have a lot of hate. But the proportion of the population that are members of hate organizations has reduced significantly in the past 30 years. The numbers of members in organizations such as these has moved to primarily uneducated areas of the country. Not that it doesn't exist in highly educated areas, but the numbers are significantly different. I think education plays a huge role. We aren't born to hate. Think about it, anything you hate, dislike, don't belive in came from your background.

If you never knew that a gay man, a Jew, a Muslim, or a Christian were different than you and should be punished because of it, you would never try and punish this person.
racisim in america was/is based on ignorance... islamic terrorism is based on faith. you can't educate a person who believes what they're doing is the will of God.
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Old 03-24-2004, 01:09 PM   #47
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Originally posted by STING2
Many companies are moving to developing countries and employing workers there which reduces unemployment there adding more disposable income to the population which helps the countries economy.
Disposable income? Many of these multinationals go into developing countries and expect people to work 14 hour days for a wage of few dollars a month. All too often the conditions people are expected to work in are not only degrading and unpleasant but also extremely dangerous, serious injuries and deaths are not uncommon.


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Guess which city in which country gave U2 its highest GROSS figure for the POPMART TOUR? It was not London, New York or any of the usual suspects. Nope, it was Buenos Aires, Argentina. That would have been unthinkable years ago.
Is that a new development indicator? Amount of money made by a U2 concert?

I'm so glad you brought up Argentina. Events there in 2002 - the virtual collapse of their economy, the effects of which continue today are evidence that the policies of the World Bank and IMF have been disastrous for developing countries.


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But every day conditions in many third world countries continued to improve and people have more money to spend as well. I expect U2 to to take advantage of some of these new markets on the next tour just as they did on POPMART.
Do go ahead and tell that to the children who don't go to school anymore because the IMF instructed their government to charge fees for education and their parents can't afford to pay. Do go and tell that to the people starving to death because the IMF told their government it couldn't subsidise food for them. Do tell that to the farmers who can no longer sell their crops because their markets have been flooded with cheap Western imports. Do tell that to the people dying from lack of healthcare because their government spends more money paying back the interest on a debt owed to a wealthy Western country.

But hey, as long as U2 swing by on their next tour, I'm sure life is peachy for them.
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Old 03-24-2004, 01:29 PM   #48
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No matter how abhorrent people might find Hamas' ideology, they are a political/religious group and therefore the murder of their leaders is an assassination.

That a group uses violence to achieve its aims does not mean they are not a political group. The IRA are clearly a political movement but they have in the past used violence to achieve their aims. The same is true of ETA: their demands are political and some of their tactics are violent.
With a definition this broad, the KKK would be a political group.
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Old 03-24-2004, 01:30 PM   #49
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Re: Re: Re: ergh

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Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase


racisim in america was/is based on ignorance... islamic terrorism is based on faith. you can't educate a person who believes what they're doing is the will of God.
Many would argue that the KKK and other white supremist groups are based on faith. Many of them believe it's God's will to keep their race pure.

There is often a thin line between faith and ignorance. There are many here in the states that have their faith twisted due to ignorance into making them think they are doing God's will by killing abortion doctors, starting suicide cults etc.

To just blame it on their religion and to not think education plays a part in this will be the ultimate downfall in our fight against terrorism because we will never attack it at the root. It will never be eliminated.
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Old 03-24-2004, 01:45 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
With a definition this broad, the KKK would be a political group.
I think you must have misinterpreted my post since I didn't offer a definition of a political group, broad or otherwise.
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Old 03-24-2004, 01:46 PM   #51
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educate? who's going to educate them... the west? i think not... we're the great satan, afterall. you throw out the term education... but educate them on what? that we're all shiny happy people and we should all sit beside the fire and sing songs and hold hands? the terrorists believe what they do is God's will... are you going to educate them into thinking they're wrong? oh yeah that'll work... the people we've been calling the great satan all these years have said that we're wrong... let's believe them. yeah... sure. the only "education" would have to come from within. but that's another core problem... from within what? there are hundreds of different sects of islam, and many of them don't like the other. the only common ground is that most of them don't like us.
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Old 03-24-2004, 01:53 PM   #52
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Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase
the only "education" would have to come from within. but that's another core problem... from within what? there are hundreds of different sects of islam, and many of them don't like the other. the only common ground is that most of them don't like us.
That's where we need to start. This is something the whole planet has to work on. I didn't say it would be easy...

I'd never suggest that we go in there and try to educate them.

But I think once people start looking at it like this and realize that this is part of the core issue. And if they start to believe that there is nothing we can do to heal the core of the problem, then some psycho is going to come in and say let's just wipe out the whole Middle East because it's a lost cause.
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Old 03-24-2004, 01:54 PM   #53
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FizzingWhizzbees,

"Disposable income? Many of these multinationals go into developing countries and expect people to work 14 hour days for a wage of few dollars a month. All too often the conditions people are expected to work in are not only degrading and unpleasant but also extremely dangerous, serious injuries and deaths are not uncommon."

There are problems indeed. Rather than stop the process of globalization, it should be accelerated. As more people are employed in these countries, companies will have to compete for labor which will increase wages and other standards. Work life can be very difficult in many of these places, but imagine what its like with no employment at all.

"Is that a new development indicator? Amount of money made by a U2 concert?"

I bet a million dollars you would dismiss this fact, but it is indeed true. Its not necessarly a development indicator, but definitely an example of the long way many third world countries have come over the past few decades.

The idea that any business, whether its U2, Burger King, K-Mart, or Ford, could have its best business figures come from a city like Buenos Aires, Argentina rather than New York City or LA is Amazing. If things were as bad there as the far left would have everyone believe, it would have been impossible for U2 to have made so much money there or in fact any money at all.

"I'm so glad you brought up Argentina. Events there in 2002 - the virtual collapse of their economy, the effects of which continue today are evidence that the policies of the World Bank and IMF have been disastrous for developing countries."

The economic difficulties Argentina experienced in 2002 are bad, but Argentina still has the 34th highest standard of living in the world as of July 2003 according to the United Nations Human Development Index. Thats higher than Poland at #35 or Hungary at 38 or one of the wealthiest countries in the Persian Gulf region, Bahrain at #37.

The problems are more complex than the typical left wing rant that the IMF, Globalization, the United States are the reason behind every problem that exist in the third world.

There are clearly many success and improvements despite what the anti-globalization crowd says.
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Old 03-24-2004, 02:04 PM   #54
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I love the way any criticism of globalization gets dismissed as "the typical left wing rant" by the "anti-globalization crowd."

Still, I suppose that's far easier than addressing the real issues.
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Old 03-24-2004, 02:38 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees
I love the way any criticism of globalization gets dismissed as "the typical left wing rant" by the "anti-globalization crowd."

Still, I suppose that's far easier than addressing the real issues.
Blaming the IMF, Free Trade, and Globalization for all the problems in the third world is definitely not a way of addressing the real issues.
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Old 03-24-2004, 07:19 PM   #56
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How do you defeat terrorism? Everyone learns to love one another, and everyone learns that we are all God's children and He loves us all.
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Old 03-24-2004, 07:30 PM   #57
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That's part of the problem - are God's children the children of Isaac or Ishmael?
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Old 03-24-2004, 07:59 PM   #58
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
That's part of the problem - are God's children the children of Isaac or Ishmael?
What about neither...yet another possibility for complication.
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Old 03-24-2004, 08:09 PM   #59
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I'm not sure it's any more possible to stop terrorism than it is possible to stop crime. Might terrorism be defined, at least partially, as the worst of crimes, or the ultimate crime? If so, we're stuck with it as we are stuck with evil. Perhaps we're not necessarily stuck with Al Qaeda, but it seems to me we are stuck with terrorism per se. Damn.
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Old 03-24-2004, 08:57 PM   #60
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Interesting.....very interesting....

[Q]In the early months of the intifada, this macho pretense was sustained by the Israeli government's tacit decision not to target terrorist ringleaders, for fear such attacks would inspire massive retaliation. Yassin and his closest associates considered themselves immune from Israeli reprisals and operated in the open. What followed was the bloodiest terrorist onslaught in Israeli history, climaxing in a massacre at Netanya in March 2002. After that, Israel invaded the West Bank and began to target terrorist leaders more aggressively.

The results, in terms of lives saved, were dramatic. In 2003, the number of Israeli terrorist fatalities declined by more than 50% from the previous year, to 213 from 451. The overall number of attacks also declined, to 3,823 in 2003 from 5,301 in 2002, a drop of 30%. In the spring of 2003, Israel stepped up its campaign of targeted assassinations, including a failed attempt on Yassin's deputy, Abdel Aziz Rantisi. Wise heads said Israel had done nothing except incite the Palestinians to greater violence. Instead, Hamas and other Islamic terrorist groups agreed unilaterally to a cease-fire.

In this context, it bears notice that between 2002 and 2003 the number of Palestinian fatalities also declined significantly, from 1,000 to about 700. The reason here is obvious: As the leaders of Palestinian terror groups were picked off and their operations were disrupted, they were unable to carry out the kind of frequent, large-scale attacks that had provoked Israel's large-scale reprisals. Terrorism is a top-down business, not vice versa. Targeted assassinations not only got rid of the most guilty but diminished the risk of open combat between Israeli soldiers and Palestinian foot soldiers. [/Q]

I thought a strong offense did not work?
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editor...l?id=110004855
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