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Old 03-23-2004, 08:03 PM   #16
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


Who is responsible to create the balance? Plenty of the world's wealth flows into the middle east.

We argue economics and education, but what do wealthy muslims do for the Palestinians? Besides supplying weapons and building schools that advocate the destruction of all jews?
You're right. Damn those Wahhabist madrassas. The other thing is a lack of democracy which can be blamed on all of the Middle East governments, like that of Syria, etc, etc. that reject any kind of democratic reform. I have read complaints about Syria in particular in U.S. Arab newspapers about reform ideas going nowhere fast.
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Old 03-23-2004, 08:08 PM   #17
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Excellent points....

I say we declare Saudi Arabia a terrorist state until they stop paying terrorists to attack anywhere but in their home country.

The are certainly not our friends. Why should we continue to send foreign aid to countries like Egypt when they too spout such hatred towards us. I am sick of it. We are paying them off.
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Old 03-23-2004, 08:25 PM   #18
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I'm afraid if we completely cut off Saudi Arabia we screw their liberal/pro-reform element. These people are mostly middle class people in Jeddah, who regularly walk around in public not wearing their veils, women who drive in political demonstrations demanding the right to drive, etc, etc. There are even enough pro-reform people in the Royal Family to be causing rumors around the the place about royal infighting. I don't know.........
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Old 03-23-2004, 08:33 PM   #19
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I don't think we can defeat terrorism until our species has changed at a very basic level. We've always preyed upon each other, we've just gotten better at it as time has gone by. It's going to take the second coming or some similarly earth- shattering event to change the way all people think. And that event might very well be the end of us.

Sorry, feeling rather hopeless about it.
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Old 03-23-2004, 08:37 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
Excellent points....

I say we declare Saudi Arabia a terrorist state until they stop paying terrorists to attack anywhere but in their home country.

The are certainly not our friends. Why should we continue to send foreign aid to countries like Egypt when they too spout such hatred towards us. I am sick of it. We are paying them off.
Out of curiosity, what do you think is the reason for the US' continued support of Saudi Arabia?
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Old 03-23-2004, 08:57 PM   #21
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
You need to be strong on two fronts. Unfortunately, I believe we are only strong on one front.
Do you think that guns are going to solve terrorism? They aren't. You can kill people, but you can't kill ideas. The death of Sheikh Ahmed Yassin didn't kill Hamas; in fact, the group probably has even more support and will now get even more militant. Yassin, ironically, was "moderate" in comparison to the new leader of Hamas. And if he gets killed too? Another will take his place.

In the midst of everything, nothing in Palestine has changed. There is still 50%+ unemployment, there is still a barely functioning government, and education is still probably controlled by the extremists. The only way we are ever going to end terrorism for good is to appeal to human nature:

--Money, which means employing people in dignified jobs, not creating a sweatshop nation that can't afford the product they create. Greed, above all, is what controls humanity.

--Secular education, which, regardless of what *anyone* says, is the most *tolerant* education out of them all. As it stands, many of these nations are getting educated by religious fanatics, who merely indoctrinate them to hate everyone who isn't like them. The only reason that Europe and America isn't killing each other today is thanks to secularism, which, above all, teaches that different cultures can co-exist in the same state. That's certainly a far cry from pre-secularism, where Europe was plagued by the Papal Inquisition and it is certainly a far cry from what is going on in Muslim nations today. Organized religion has done *nothing* but polarize people.

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Old 03-23-2004, 09:22 PM   #22
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Excellent post melon. I agree with you 100%.
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Old 03-23-2004, 09:28 PM   #23
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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


Out of curiosity, what do you think is the reason for the US' continued support of Saudi Arabia?
I'm tempted to say "oil". I don't think supporting their liberal/ reform element is considered as important, but I think that's valid.
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Old 03-23-2004, 09:36 PM   #24
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Oil and the fact that an autocratic, but dependable monarchy is preferable to elected Islamic fundamentalists.

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Old 03-23-2004, 09:50 PM   #25
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Oil....

And I do not believe ECONOMICS by itself will do a blessed thing. I am leaning towards the beliefe that the terrorists have no interest in becoming friendly with us. I do believe that not demonstrating that you are willing to defend yourself they look at as weakness. I think statements from Muslim leaders over the past year, alluding to how Mohammad bid his time, to get strong, and then struck at his enemies is a big indicator, that we may be able to buy peace for the short term, but long term the west and its culture is not part of their plans.

Maybe I sound awful saying this, but I do not believe the terrorists as they exist now want true peace.

In my opinion the economics would be good to help the people of Africa and other poor nations where terrorism may be able to recruit.

As for the "Holy Man" shall I list the number of deaths he is linked to? Israel did the right thing. I only fault them for not hitting all of Hamas leadership at once.
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Old 03-23-2004, 09:52 PM   #26
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Maybe we can stop sending foreign aid to all of the countries that support terrorism who consistently allow the terrorists to bread their hatred of the us and send all of that money to Africa...and for AIDS.
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Old 03-23-2004, 10:30 PM   #27
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Stop sending foreign aid? Go right ahead. Then you'll bankrupt their governments, which will, in turn, end any potential form of secular education or social services. Where there's a need, there's going to be someone to fill that void: militant Islamic groups that will provide these basic services, which will, in turn, make the general public sympathetic to their cause. After all, you don't bite the hand that feeds you. As the story goes, Fidel Castro only turned communist after the U.S. refused to give him aid, while the Soviet Union was happy to oblige.

Terrorists don't want true peace? That's certain, but these people will eventually die. The matter, thus, is not whether we can rehabilitate these people, but whether or not they will be able to make an impact on future generations. Leaving people in abject poverty is fuelling terrorism, because, as I said, where their governments cannot provide, terrorist organizations are more than willing to take their place.

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Old 03-23-2004, 10:30 PM   #28
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Its important that the United States continue the strong ties that it has had with Saudi Arabia for nearly 60 years now. Saudi Arabia supply's the planet with 25% of its energy and is vital to the global economy. The destruction or cut off of this energy supplies would plunge the world into and economic depression that would dwarf the Great Depression of the 1930s with unknowable consequences.

US engagement with Egypt has helped keep peace between Israel and Egypt for nearly 30 years now. Egypt unlike other Arab countries has recognized Israel and its right to exist. Egypt has also worked extensively with the USA in combating terrorism and helping to contain and keep pressure on Libya.


Melon,


You may not be able to kill idea's, but you can certainly manage those that attempt to cause harm in the name of those idea's. We need Police on our streets that have guns in order to fight crime and deter it. Without military action in Afghanistan, Al Quada would still have its base of operations in Afghanistan posing a major threat to the world. Having good intelligence and a strong military to fight terrorism is vital.

Like Dreadsox said though, there are two tracks. Foreign aid and economic development of the rest of the world is very important. Globalization and Free Trade are aiding in this process.

Secular education but respect for religion and culture are very important as well. But like all these things it is not the only thing. The worst disaster in human history, World War II, did not involve religion.
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Old 03-23-2004, 10:38 PM   #29
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Police? With what money? That's certainly part of the problem. And Afghanistan? Talk about backing up my argument; the nation is one gigantic failed state.

Our president said that the "war on terrorism" would be a different kind of war. And that I agree with, but what have we done as a result? Fight it in the same exact manner. Certainly, in this short term, the military is needed to a degree, and sweeping up the terrorists in Afghanistan and Pakistan is a positive development. But what kinds of plans do we have in the long term? Overthrow governments, install new ones, and leave them on their way? That doesn't seem like a "new kind of war" at all. In fact, it was overthrowing governments and installing puppet governments that helped get us in this mess in the first place.

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Old 03-23-2004, 11:31 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


Who is responsible to create the balance? Plenty of the world's wealth flows into the middle east.

We argue economics and education, but what do wealthy muslims do for the Palestinians? Besides supplying weapons and building schools that advocate the destruction of all jews?
That's the thing we need to think beyond us. We all need to move towards the balance. But we probably never will. Moving towards a balance with the rest of the world is going to require sacrifice. It will require sacrifice financially on our part, it will require sacrifice in religious beliefs with others and humans aren't capable of doing this.
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