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Old 04-28-2005, 08:31 AM   #31
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
Children mouthing off to their parents "I know my rights" "I'll call the police" etc. is unaccepatble.


but what about children who are actually abused? shouldn't they know that it's not okay to be beaten with a wrench or have lit cigarettes put out on their bottoms?

i'm also wondering about an earlier point made -- if an adult hits an adult, it's assault/battery; if an adult his a child, it's discipline.

it does seem like there's a big contradiction going on there.
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Old 04-28-2005, 09:01 AM   #32
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Both of my parents went to Catholic schools in the late '40s and early '50s. I've heard the horror stories too, and I remember thinking how thankful I was that I grew up in a more enlightened era.
Both my parents were raised in Catholic schools and in strict Catholic families, and I too have had exposure to Catholic schools, including one that, however unofficially, did use corporal punishment to an extent - and we 'don't' have horror stories. Respectfully, I disagree. Yes, there are horror stories and I have heard them, but I think it is important to put it in context - these are extreme cases. I don't believe that this was the norm.

While I do agree to an extent that it is a contradiction in terms that hitting an adult is unacceptable while hitting a child is not, do believe that parents have the right to educate their children, and punishment comes into that. Some children, and I do mean some, really 'do' need to be taught a lesson the hard way.

I take my brother as an example. I was the first born and I was raised, and this is something even my parents admit to, very strictly, and never 'spared the rod', as it were. It was their first time as parents and they were afraid to 'mess it up'. Also, I spent years in a school that did advocate the use of force, where the teachers were respected and/or feared, and everyone could get on with work peacefully. Strangely enough, I do not resent neither my parents or my teachers for it. Instead, I'm grateful - I am one of the most polite people I know. My brother, on the other hand, was dealt with in a different manner. My parents weren't strict at all with him, or at least, not to the same extent and he did not go to a Catholic school. It may seem like a horrid thing to say; but my brother could have benefited from a smack at the right time.

Punishment is part of a child's education. From a young age the child must learn that there are certain rules of civility and that there is a form of conduct, otherwise we really do start subscribing to the fact that children are equals to their teachers. Forgive me, but they are not. School is not a democracy and its not there to have children mouth off to teachers and 'rebel', they're there to learn, and if learning should perhance involve learning the hard way, so be it.

I was once asked what is so wrong with Britain's youth of today. I never answered it, but I shall now. The problem with Britain's youth, as a case study, is that children are less academically capable now then they were decades ago - their exams have become easier and their schools have adopted different approaches that really seem to revolve around the 'laissez-faire' method of doing things. The problem with today's youth is that they think they're adults by the tender age of ten, and are having sex, transmitting STDs and getting pregnant. This is no exaggeration; Britain is the worst offender in Europe when it comes to STDs and teenage pregancy. The problem with today's youth, in Britain, is that they continuosly abuse their teachers. Teachers are constantly being mouthed off with choice phrases such as 'I know my rights' and 'I'll call the police'. There have been many cases when they have, indeed, called the police. There have been cases where the teacher has been investigated, sued, dismissed, disgraced and publicly humiliated for doing something as trivial as verbally reprimanding a child.

The problem with Britain's youth today is that they are noisy. N, worse than that - they behave little different to hoodlums. Too many of them are impolite, loud, obstructive and generally have very big mouths.

The problem, as I stated before, is that they think they are adults. Forgive me, but they are not adults, and they do not have the same rights - children are obliged to go to school until the age of 16 (did I mention that we also have the highest truancy rate in Europe?), and an education is legally forced upon them.

No, I don't believe that a school having the option of corporal punishment is too extreme.

Ant.
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Old 04-28-2005, 09:46 AM   #33
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Ant, two questions:

1. could the differences between you and your brother be attributable to differences beyond corporal punishment? i remember the first rule of Psychology 101 being "correlation does not prove causation."

2. did you see the show "That'll Teach 'Em"? we looked at that show where i work with the idea of doing an American version ... if you haven't you should definitely check it out, very funny, well produced ... i saw the 2nd season where contemporary students were sent to a recreated secondary modern school. does a great job at looking at what's gotten better since 1964, and what's gotten worse.
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Old 04-28-2005, 10:42 AM   #34
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Irvine;

Some cool questions.

1. Oh, indeed! I know that the way I presented the 'case study' was simplistic and indulging in rash generalisations. I am the first to admit that the scenario is far more complex than that, and I do accept the maxim 'correlation does not prove causation', even in this situation. To answer your question; yes. The differences are attributable to other factors. We have very distinct personalities; while it is true that we both have vicious tempers, mine is far more passive while his is explosive. He is 'a living force' in the best and worst sense in that he is far too controlled by his passions - and this has led to many problems for him.. and he's only 17! However, I wouldn't rule out that had he been brought up in the same way as myself, he may have been taught self-restraint more efficiently. The problem seems to me that he was always given free reign and licence to do and act in whatever way he saw fit. He got away with things I would only dream of getting away with, and I do think that it comes down to the 'sparing the rod' factor. I agree, its not just the only one, but it can be a crucial one. I feel that my brother could have benefited in growing up in a stricter environment.

2. I did see the show 'That'll Teach 'Em'. It truly was very funny and, for my appalling sense of humour, it was entertaining watching some horrifically rude children getting their come uppence. However, the enjoyment factor was short-lived when I realised that the children (some of them, the really unruly ones) realised themselves that it was, after all, just a show, and decided to act out in their own ways. In that respect I don't think the show was particularly succesful, it merely showed what, I think, many of us know - that children are getting away with more now than they did back in the 50s.

I really don't want to seem nostalgic, I really don't. As you may have guessed or gathered from previous posts, I don't like glorifying the past at all. I do, however, feel that certain education systems need an overhaul or two, and I do believe that it has come to that.

Ant.
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