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Old 10-27-2002, 08:22 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by Holy John
I don't mean to defend the chechen commando, but what the russian military is doing in Chechenia is also terrorism in my opinion.
Holy John,

No way am I defending those representatives of the Russian
military in Chechnya who have been commiting crimes against the
Chechens(or any other people there).What's more:I'm certain that most Russian people want the Chechen war to end.Young Russian guys go there and die for God knows what.Ordinary Chechen people suffer from both Russian military and Chechen terrorists.Money which could go to the social needs goes to the war's needs as well as into military's pocket.It's nothing but genocide for both Chechens and Russians (thank you Mr Yeltsin for ALL that you did for both countries!).I don't think many Russian people see Chechnya as a real part of Russia - in fact,it's a completely different place,so if the Chechen people would choose to live in the Chechnya which would be a completely independent state,that's fine,but if ,for this or that reason,they'd
choose to remain a part of Russia,that's fine too.
But:I'm talking about the nation,and what indignates me most about the likes of Baraev (the killed leader of those hostage takers) is that they have the guts to represent themselves as some fighters for Chechnya's freedom,as if they were speaking from the name of the whole Chechen nation,and even add some
Islamic idea to that.The bunch of real thugs who still put their own Chechens as well as Russians who live there into slavery(LITERALLY),who torture people,who leave needles behing them
cause they're drugged out all the time they're "fighting" are as
much "fighters for independence" as their spiritual father Bin Laden.
Remember the IRA who used the same nationalistic and religious
ideas to justify their actions.I've been very interested in the Irish
history(not just cause of U2) and I've always sympathised with the idea of the united Ireland,and I can even understand what made ordinary people join the IRA at different periods of time.But still,is this the way it's gonna be,through murders and blood of
all those people,Irish and British(and foreigners who happened to be there - remember those Spanish teenagers killed during the explosion in Omagh back in 98),Caths and Prods? Are you sure
these people could make their nation happy under their power?
Are you sure they could ever be forgiven by all those people whose lives were ruined "thanks" to their methods?
I don't think so.
The same here.The situation is altogether very complicated in
Russia,so maybe some things can't be seen as clear from the
outside.Obviously we want this war to finally end but even if it were not for the money and the oil for a few corrupt families (yes,Pinkfloyd!) I don't see how it can end.The links of the
"Chechen"(again,I don't mean the nationality itself but rather the place where they come from) terrorsts to the international terrorism are far too obvious.These people get their training in the Middle East,there're numerous Arab mercenaries among them,the best known one called Hottab- and yeah,"that sounds familiar"!The minute we leave Chechnya it becomes the breeding ground of the international terrorism,or I should say it's already become thanks to people like Lord Judd who started presenting them to the world as kinda "armed dissidents"(!!!).
I think we all know the price we have to pay for such attitude.
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Old 10-27-2002, 01:03 PM   #32
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"Official: Gas Killed 115 Moscow Siege Hostages"

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...c_66&printer=1

How interesting...only one of the hostages, apparently, were shot inside the theatre. The gas the Russians are believed to have used, BZ, was an especially strong Vietnam War-era incapacitant.

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Old 10-27-2002, 11:47 PM   #33
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Melon i also have seen this report.

They are saynig they dont have a anti serom. 200 more are still in critacal conditon. How could the Russian kill there own people??

This is gonna be a big story!!
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Old 10-28-2002, 11:13 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by Aine



The same here.The situation is altogether very complicated in
Russia,so maybe some things can't be seen as clear from the
outside.
Thanks for taking the time to explain this. I never knew a lot of what you wrote about there, and it's very interesting, very tragic. It saddens me to think of the Russian boys who are growing up and destined to go fight this war over there, of the Chechens influenced by a fight they may not believe is their own. (Reminds me a lot of the fighting in Israel, age old arguments, dragged out over centuries, leaving behind a bloody trail.) on a total sidenote, it's amazing the issues humans have with forgiveness (the one thing God gives to us all, free of charge).

to the gas released, I can't believe how many people died and how many more are sick still.. what did they do, using a gas like that..??
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Old 10-28-2002, 02:03 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by bonoman
How could the Russian kill there own people??
It was not "Russians killing their own people".It was a special forces' operation.They started storming cause the terrorists started to kill the hostages.They had to use gas to "switch off" the terrorists,otherwise the latter would have exploded the theatre with ALL the hostages inside it in a wink.The terrorits
were obviously shahids,or at least they called themselves
such.That means they were prepared to die - at least the
females who had explosives around their waists (which can be
clearly seen on the tape they had pre-recordered to show on Al-Gasira channel(one of the main Islamic channels,sorry I'm not quite sure about its English spelling). I'm not a professional in that sphere and I can't go as far as to suggest the best way out of that situation.During the Olympic Games in Munich the terrorists
also took hostages (Israeli sportsmen).German special forces
conducted the operation and it failed - in the end the terrorists
killed all the hostages.You have to understand that it's almost like
the war:everything can happen.Don't get me wrong,it's hard for me to say so and it hurts but I'm not here to unload my emotions
on people.I've already done it in my first post.
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Old 10-28-2002, 02:37 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by oliveu2cm
I never knew a lot of what you wrote about there, and it's very interesting, very tragic.
(Reminds me a lot of the fighting in Israel, age old arguments, dragged out over centuries, leaving behind a bloody trail.)
I think there're a lot of things we don't know about each other,
that's why I try to be very careful when it comes to situation in other countries and prefer to get information from the horse's
mouth as you say in the US,rather than have my views formed by the mass-media where there's always a risk of bias,facts being omitted or perversed(the Cold War era was a classic case of that).
And yes,Israel's very much the same.I have some very close friends there as well as in the US,and I've really become used to
worrying about them (sad as it is) and taking all such events very
personally.

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Old 10-28-2002, 05:56 PM   #37
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I am not a politician or an expert on Russian/Chechen relations, so I can only comment on parts of this I have an understanding of: from a biochemical, biomedical perspective, it was a mistake to use the gas they did. In fact, I am quite horrified at the news today.
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Old 10-28-2002, 06:03 PM   #38
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I do not hesitate to say I think they did the right thing with the gas. My only question is was there something else they could have used or was this the best technology available to them?

It is an awful decision to have made I am sure. Given the fact that the building was not blown up causing more deaths, of hostages and rescue teams, it sounds like a good decision to me. Once again, I am curious if there is more evidence linking the hostage takers to Saudi Arabia and Al-Qeda.


Peace to all.
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Old 10-28-2002, 06:46 PM   #39
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I agree this was possibly a dire situation and the result may have been the best of numerously worse ones looming. Its all very easy for us to say in hindsight that it could have been handled better, but it was the terrorists who created the situation, not the Russian special forces. Sadly the hostages, innocent people, are always the ones that suffer fromm terrorist actions.

However if the special forces used a gas that is prohibited under the UN convention/treaty on chemical and biological weapons - where does that leave a) the treaty and b) the US moral high ground with respect to the threat of Iraq having chemical and biological weapons? I fear a can of worms being opened... I also dont understand why the doctors at the hospitals are complaining that they dont know what they are up against, or what gas they are dealing with (at least that is what is being reported here).
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Old 10-28-2002, 07:41 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by zoomerang II
I also dont understand why the doctors at the hospitals are complaining that they dont know what they are up against, or what gas they are dealing with (at least that is what is being reported here).
That is a huge concern. The Russian military is not disclosing the exact agent used. Many are in the hospital, surviving the attack and gassing, but still suffering the effects.
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