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Old 07-24-2004, 10:28 AM   #1
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hostage crisis

Is anyone else concerned about the worsening hostage crisis in Iraq? This morning, Baghdad time, insurgents kidnapped a prominent businessman. Yesterday they grabbed an Egyptian as he left a mosque. Is this ever going to end?
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Old 07-24-2004, 11:19 AM   #2
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Remember what I said last month about Positive, Neutral and Negative responses to terrorism and in particular hostage taking. It was right then and it is obviously right now and anybody who disagreed then can now see what I was saying in action.

Phillipines rewarded terrorists thus giving them (the terrorist) a positive response for their actions and the frequency of such attacks increases. This is compared to the past few months of Neutral responses where the target government simply refuses to negotiate and hopes for the best, the terrorists do not gain anything however they dont loose anything. The third option which hasn't been tried yet is too punish terrorist attacks by pledging more money and/or troops to the reconstruction of Iraq, I personally feel that if contries tried the third option not only would it be saving innocent lives in the future, the negative effect of such an action to the terrorists would act as a detterent to taking hostages in future. These murders will only stop when a leader shows some backbone and does the exact opposite of what the terrorists want by hurting their cause.

Semi-seriously perhaps an ultimatum such as this would work well.
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You have just taken an/a [Insert Nationality Here] hostage and are demanding that [Insert Demands Here], My government will not negotiate with you as that would be counterproductive to the cause of peace and freedom that my troops are in Iraq to provide. Unless you release my citizen in the next 48 hours I will pledge an additional [whatever ammount of funds] to the rebuilding of Iraq and dispatch my countries [name of countries special forces] into Iraq with the express mission of hunting you down and terminating you with extreme predjudice. Free the hostage or pay the price. Goodbye
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Old 07-24-2004, 11:36 AM   #3
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If this happens anytime soon, I wonder who it will be? These guys have certainly gotten more bold since the Filipino guy went back to Manila. This certainly is not an incentive for any other countries to send troops there, and we've got just about all of our troops deployed. It's not looking good.
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Old 07-24-2004, 11:56 AM   #4
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regarding your quote about hunting them down...

they dont care if they die ....if they are hunted down and killed they are dying for allah. they have no fear of dying .
they were raised in a shitty place and when they die they believe...and I mean they REALLY BELIEVE they are going to a very heavenly eternity. especially if they die for what they have drilled into thier heads at an early age is a very noble cause.
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Old 07-24-2004, 12:00 PM   #5
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Don't be so pessimistic, there is still hope for Iraq, the fact that they are resorting to such crude methods and soft targets is a hint that the days of massive carbombs blowing up UN compounds and "popular" uprisings are coming to an end. Things are tough and rocky but there are plenty of indications that it aint quite as easy to operate as a terrorist in Iraq as it used to be and if the current progress continues things are only going to get better (I admit I have a vested interest here, I have 20 dollars in New Iraqi Dinar so my money is where my mouth is). I hope that in 5 years we can look at Iraq as a stable fledgling liberal democracy where Iraqi police maintain law and order and the oil money funds the ever ongoing construction of a nation.

I know the mindset of a true fundamentalist is that of death but I suspect many here would be willing to just die for their cause, they dont even have the bravery to take of the balaclavas, hardly the actions of the "Noble Muslim Warriors" they want to present themselves as. Most Iraqi's see these guys as murderous thugs who are oppertunistic and will kill whoever they can get their hands on. Because of their anonaminity their deaths are always unceremonious and rarely noticed by anyone.
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Old 07-24-2004, 12:56 PM   #6
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The scary thing is that according to a news article I just read on my ISP's home page the insurgents have wide popular support throughout the country. They quoted Iraqis as saying they didn't like Alawi--both Sunnis and Shi'ites, especially the Sunnis, who don't give a damn that al-Sadr has denounced the beheadings. They're the ones doing them. Bombings, kidnappings, all sorts of things are practically daily happenings. I know this is not all that's going on in Iraq but God knows there's way too much. Frankly, I'll believe liberal democracy will work in Iraq when I see it, not before.
BTW the cartoon is from my home town paper, the Birmingham News. Stantis sure does stir up controversy with his cartoons!
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Old 07-24-2004, 01:08 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Remember what I said last month about Positive, Neutral and Negative responses to terrorism and in particular hostage taking. It was right then and it is obviously right now and anybody who disagreed then can now see what I was saying in action.

Phillipines rewarded terrorists thus giving them (the terrorist) a positive response for their actions and the frequency of such attacks increases. This is compared to the past few months of Neutral responses where the target government simply refuses to negotiate and hopes for the best, the terrorists do not gain anything however they dont loose anything. The third option which hasn't been tried yet is too punish terrorist attacks by pledging more money and/or troops to the reconstruction of Iraq, I personally feel that if contries tried the third option not only would it be saving innocent lives in the future, the negative effect of such an action to the terrorists would act as a detterent to taking hostages in future. These murders will only stop when a leader shows some backbone and does the exact opposite of what the terrorists want by hurting their cause.

Sorry but your theory holds no water. These are terrorist "on a mission" not dogs in training. They've been taking hostages, since the beginning of all this. They don't need positive or negative reinforcement to justify their behavior, they are programed to believe their behavior is justified by a higher power. You pledge to send in more troops and they will just recruit more men. I read one article where some leader says it's ok to use women, because when in Jihad women are allowed to fight with the men. They'll stop when they reach their mission or when they are all dead. By no means does any positive, negative, or neutral reinforcement change anything in these murderers minds.

Due to the position we're in I think the only way to fight the terrorist now is to somehow fight on their playing field. We're in too deep to do anything else right now. In the future we need to work the root, we need to destroy what breeds their recruitments but until then we have to focus on the shit we got ourselves into. Men in uniforms are sitting targets we need some type of special ops in their with real intelligence gatherers that can get underground so to speak and flush these men out. Otherwise this will never stop as long as they have men with this mindset.
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Old 07-24-2004, 03:01 PM   #8
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This blaming the Philippines thing is becoming a full fledged melodrama attack. I mean, really.

You should read up a little bit about Arroyo's decision making process and the power and influence that Filipino workers abroad have on the government and why that is a powerful lobby group within the country.

They are a sovereign country with the right to decide to pull out their troops. You might think that man is worth the "sacrifice" but you have no right to make that decision, neither on behalf of his family nor his country. If you believe in sacrifice, then sacrifice your own wife, brother, sister, mother, daughter, and leave others to decide for themselves, for their own compatriots. When the hell did we get to a place where we take it upon ourselves to decide (when other people's lives who have nothing whatsoever to do with us and whose deaths will not in any way impact our livelihoods) that some people should make sacrifices of human lives that they simply do not believe in? It just stinks to high heaven of presumption.
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Old 07-24-2004, 03:17 PM   #9
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The kidnappers thought they had some sort of "right" to do this prior to the pull-out of the Filipinos. They still think they do. Nothing has changed, except now the kidnappers are more bold. I do not recall the number of hostages being held but one is too many. Liberal democracy is about as likely to come out of this as green cheese.
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Old 07-24-2004, 07:41 PM   #10
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I posted elsewhere about Danish theologian Soren Kierkegaard's "leap of faith" and misspelled his name. I also think the belief that Iraq will become a liberal democracy is a "leap of faith". It's based on pure belief. That's it! Think about it, it's something you either believe or you don't. Guess what my view is? It should be fairly obvious.
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Old 07-24-2004, 10:03 PM   #11
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It is not as simple as a leap of faith, I can a countless number of things that can go wrong and mess up the situation however if you look at the progression of the country it is getting better and if this continues for the next 20 years then the success of Iraq will be plain as day.

I most certainly do blame the Phillipines for accelerating a withdrawl based on the demands of terrorists. We saw in the 60's and 70's the effect of negotiating with terrorist and the frequency of attacks increased drastically. She made a decision that has implications for every other coalition partner and every person in Iraq, this is not Abu Sayaf and any capitulation for one life costs the lives of more civilians.

DO NOT NEGOTIATE WITH TERRORISTS

The one and only rule to follow in these situations, the fact that so many here are willing to just walk away and say "well she did the right thing, she saved a life" but then try to say that these latest kidnappings have nothing to do with the decision to cave to terrorist demands is the most short sighted and pigheaded view OR self-delusional view I have seen. Theres going to be blood on her hands even if you are too blind to see it OR even if you refuse to accept it OR even a monkey could realize that.
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Old 07-24-2004, 10:13 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Theres going to be blood on here hands even if you are too blind to see it.
Is there any particular reason why you seem to constantly be inferring that those of us who disagree with you are either blind, stupid or shortsighted? Cuz it's sure getting old.
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Old 07-24-2004, 10:37 PM   #13
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Fine. placed some snazzy alternatives there but still doesn't change the fact that one life has been traded for others and that is not a good thing.
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Old 07-25-2004, 06:59 AM   #14
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A_Wanderer:
Well the liberation also traded lifes (some civilians killed by the coalition forces vs. victims of Mr. Husseins cruel dictature)

Trading life might be valid - and yes there still is blood on these hands but why is it a nono for you if people who don't agree with you do it and it's a great heroical thing if people who share your "Peace throu deadly force" vison?
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Old 07-25-2004, 07:43 AM   #15
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There is not a world in any language that can convey how "cruel" that regime was, the numbers of victims found buried in mass graves is around 200,000 at last count. Listen to some of the stories and watch some of the historical documentation and perhaps your moral equivalence between a genocidal dictator and a war of liberation will gain some clarity.

Invading Iraq was not just a case of trading life, that was saving life, tens of thousands more people would have died if we left the regime in place (more people would die if Iraq was left in "peace", want a WMD look at Saddam, killed millions of people and now he is locked up, it is a pity he only has one life left to live because nothing can undo his damage) that is entirely different from what Arroyo did. In the situation of the Phillipines one life was saved and god nows how many will be taken, combined with the additional stress it puts on the fight against terror in Mindanao (Southern Phillipines, area contains a large Muslim population as well as regional terror groups such as Abu Sayaaf, right now US provides support in fighting them) I think that this is most certainly a bad thing and no ammount of quibbling about moral equivalence will ever change that. I think that many an Iraqi would agree with me.
Quote:
The Philippines government have withdrawn and submitted to the kidnappers’ demands and the hostage got freed.
In my opinion -and I think many people agree with me- it is a very bad move to submit to the demands of a small group that represents no one but itself and pay no attention for the demands of the whole international community to rebuild and stabilize Iraq and help democratic changes in a very politically- turbulent area. This is a huge mismanagement of a crisis that the government in the Philippines should be ashamed of.
Quote:
Is this how the government in the Philippines express its gratitude to the US and the world? Are they trying to say that their lives are more precious than ours or the Americans? Did they think they won’t need help again, and why should the US keep helping them when they betray her?
Why was America willing to sacrifice her sons in the Philippines while the Philippines decided to abandon us?
The war on terrorism isn’t limited to Iraq alone and terrorism exists in the Philippines too and many other parts of the world. So, why don’t they take the risk and accept the sacrifice?
These quotes were taken from Omar at Iraq The Model, I suggest that you understand that sometimes the best of intentions can facilitate evil and what the Phillipines has done will most certainly result in more bloodshed.
http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/

Here are a bunch of others, you can gain insight by reading them.
http://healingiraq.blogspot.com/
http://iraqataglance.blogspot.com/
http://www.iraq-iraqis.blogspot.com/
http://www.roadofanation.com/
http://messopotamian.blogspot.com/
http://sunofiraq.blogspot.com/
http://fayrouz.blogspot.com/
http://nabilsblog.blogspot.com/
http://hammorabi.blogspot.com/
http://kurdo.blogspot.com/ <-- I like this one quite a bit.
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