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Old 01-22-2002, 05:20 AM   #1
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Honory murder?

Don't know if this is the right word in english but I will try to explain.

Yesterday a 26 year old woman got shot to death by her father after several years of abuse and threats by her brothers and fathers because she fell in love with the wrong man, a swede. The family is from from Turkey and are curds (right?). The family has lived in Sweden for about 20 years and a few years ago she met a swedish guy that she fell in love with and after that her life has been a hell. Her father and brothers have several times tried to kill her, they have threathened her and a few months ago she got a secret identity and just had to move away. But yesterday she went to say goodbuy to some friends and her father showed up at the apartment and shot her. A so called honory murder.

We have freedom of religion in Sweden but we also has a law that says that you are not allowed to kill. In their religion they are allowed to kill someone that goes against the religion, as this woman did. This has happened before here and it has been huge discussions about what punishment the murderer would get. Because according to them, they are innocent, she did a crime, by falling in love with the wrong man and according to their religion her male relatives are allowed to kill her. If they lived in turkey, they would probably not get any punishment at all but here, living in Sweden where you are allowed to practice any religion you want we end up in a tricky situation.

Are you allowed to practice your religion as long as it doesn't goes against the rest of our laws, if so, we don't really have a freedom of religion any more. And if you get an easier punishment because you have different religion, we are not equal to the law any longer.

Of course I don't defend this, killing is wrong but I see how this can be a problem, two laws going against each other.

What do you think? What is your reaction to this? Is it solveable?
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Old 01-22-2002, 09:11 AM   #2
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Whoa.. I don't think it is solvable as long as the government can't seperate Church and State, Now, don't get me wrong, I believe that state cannot ever be completely without religion... or let me rephrase, I think that there will always be some sort of religious/spiritual cloud in the back of State's mind, but to blindly follow a religion... Well.. I guess let's let Bin Laden go, Let's let those detainees go so the y can go kill me in my bed in the name of JIHAD. Geezus Crist protect me from those evil men.

Miss Zooropa, That's a very strange situation, I guess that is just another illustration of the trouble for direct links between religion and government.

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[This message has been edited by Lemonite (edited 01-22-2002).]
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Old 01-22-2002, 09:34 AM   #3
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Of course her father will be punished but might get a lighter one with reference to what they did is ok according to their religion. Me thinks it's totally wrong. One thing that is bad with free religion in a country I guess.

The problem is that this will happen again, and again and again. There are over a million foreigners living here (we are about 9 million in total so it's over 10%) with different religion then what is ours stated by the government and they become more and more. So what I'm really worried about is what will happen in, say ten years.
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Old 01-22-2002, 12:53 PM   #4
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I'm surprised that a lesser sentence is even being considered. This is not just a discussion in the media? The law is above religion, even for Christian Swedes, so I can't see why this would be an issue. Besides, no matter which country you live in, if you can't live with the laws, norms and values of the people there, you should just buzz off to a country that you agree with.

-This from someone who is also a guest in another country.
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Old 01-22-2002, 04:05 PM   #5
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No, it isn't a toughie at all. What's the problem? The man is clearly insane and should be tortured to death. Beat some sense into the bastard until he bleeds common sense, THEN execute him in the most painful way possible, the miserable fuck.

THIS is the problem with some doctines, they can't even make the distinction of state and religion, and thats what's wrong with certain Muslim countries (I should know, I've lived in some). To me, there is nothing difficult in making such a distinction, religion is religion and the state is the state; not everybody lives by religion, but everybody should live by the law. More often than not, religion has been proven to be
immoral in the past with outdated doctrines, if it weren't for the state making such distinctions and allowing it to proceed according to the rules of legitimacy, then the world would never advance. This is the fundamental thing that is wrong with countries such as Saudi Arabia etc., you get the state and the religion getting mixed up, and thats a bunch of shit.

Besides this distinction, which is NOT difficult to make, this piece of sick shit
was living in SWEDEN and is therefore subject to the laws of SWEDEN. Fuck his stupid religious custom and his mega-fucked up head. The man is consuming the limited economic resources of Sweden, using Swedish resources, being provided with Swedish benefits and enjoying the Swedish life-style, it is his God-given DUTY to follow Swedish law, not his fucked up religion.

Fucking piece of Pig-dog shit from hell, I hope they give him the gas-chamber. It really pisses me off to see people think and act in such a backward manner, and it PAINS me to see an innocent woman die because of some turd and his backward way of thinking.

I hope God forgives him, I know I never will.

Ant.
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Old 01-22-2002, 05:11 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anthony:
No, it isn't a toughie at all. What's the problem? The man is clearly insane and should be tortured to death. Beat some sense into the bastard until he bleeds common sense, THEN execute him in the most painful way possible, the miserable fuck.
Ant.
well ant. i can see you are upset about this but step back and look where this gentleman is coming from. he has been raised into a religion in which such an action is seen as neccessary.
it is through the elimination of such a life that they value life. it seems obvious to me that you can't make sense out of this and neither can i, in fact many westerners would be confounded at that statement. it is against everything that we hold to be the truth.
to state that the man should be tortured is simply ridiculous as that is also against western morals.
the man should recieve whatever the standard life sentence is in sweden for a first degree murder.

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Old 01-22-2002, 07:27 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by kobayashi:
well ant. i can see you are upset about this but step back and look where this gentleman is coming from. he has been raised into a religion in which such an action is seen as neccessary.
it is through the elimination of such a life that they value life. it seems obvious to me that you can't make sense out of this and neither can i, in fact many westerners would be confounded at that statement. it is against everything that we hold to be the truth.
to state that the man should be tortured is simply ridiculous as that is also against western morals.
the man should recieve whatever the standard life sentence is in sweden for a first degree murder.
No, Kobayashi; while it may be against western morals I don't think its ridiculous to have such filth tortured. As you may have picked up from previous posts, my morality is not as clean-cut and slap-the-wrist as what you would call 'western morality'. While in some states in the US it is still legal to punish people by death, I still don't see why some elements of Roman Law isn't applicable; crufixion of such scum-bags is in order.

And regarding where this 'man is coming from', I couldn't give a pair of fetid dingo kidneys, the man has been quite comfortable in accepting the rest of the Swedish package; whether it be the living conditions, the social and financial benefits entitled and the security the nation of Sweden provides - it is no excuse and I feel no compassion for him whatsoever. Don't get me wrong, Kobayashi, I understand his custom fine, but I don't respect it as it is barbaric and simply 'evil', to be broad. And another thing, I wouldn't call the man a gentleman, as you have yourself, the man DID shoot his own daughter, you know, that's not particularly
'gentlemanlike'.

I can understand and admire that you are trying to be calm and logical and reasonable about all this, Kobayashi, but I simply won't have it; I am much too enraged by this. I find it horrifying that this sort of custom still goes on, that it is NOT confined to the barbaric places it originated from and that people are so weak that they can even consider allowing it to happen without taking extreme action to get rid of it. KIll them all, bastards.

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Old 01-22-2002, 09:05 PM   #8
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ok.
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Old 01-22-2002, 11:59 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anthony:
Ant.
alrighty then.


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Old 01-23-2002, 03:24 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by Klodomir:
I'm surprised that a lesser sentence is even being considered. This is not just a discussion in the media? The law is above religion, even for Christian Swedes, so I can't see why this would be an issue. Besides, no matter which country you live in, if you can't live with the laws, norms and values of the people there, you should just buzz off to a country that you agree with.
I totally agree with you! But as a matter of fact, this isn't the first time this has happened here but special since she has been very open about it and been in media and been open about how it really is, talking in schools, on TV. But it has happened before and actually the punishment has been lowered a little bit because of the religion and the culture.

I've been watching some stuff about this on TV tonight and it's scary!! She sued her father and her brother for threats three years ago and in the courtroom her brother tries to attac her and screams not so nice things and even threatens her again and when the police takes him in after it's done there, he has no understanding why. And he tries to talk himself out of it because she IS a hore and a shame for his family.

I specially agree with your last sentence and am glad you said it first. But the whole problem comes to the surface when someone tries to fit in to the sociaty and takes part in the new culture and the family doesn't like it.

This sure is scary and sometimes I'm ashamed of my leaders for being so lame!

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Old 01-23-2002, 04:15 AM   #11
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This makes me think of the current immigration issues we have here. But I'll be good and try to stick to the topic. I think the best I can do is reiterate what Anthony and Klod have already said.

Its fone to have a religious belief, and grow up knowing and sunscribing to any ideals. But it is not always possible to simply pick it up and take it to another society, culture or country that practices a direct contradiction of that. Freedom of religion is fine and good, but only where it is permissable. Its the individual's responsibility to understand, that Curd or not, it is a crime in Sweden to kill. Its as simple as that. Here's a comparison, a lot smaller in scale, but the same kind of thing. When I was 19 I was intending to go to America. I was going to fit in a U2 show in Vegas. Prob was the show was in a casino there, and wondered if the US drinking laws applied as I was Aussie. Of course they do. As an Australian, I can legally drink at age 18, but not on American soil. I wasn't going to argue with it. Its an American law applicable in the United States of America. If I wanted to go there for a visit, I had to comply. Simple.

Klod summed it up, if you dont like it, go elsewhere.
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