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Old 11-17-2005, 06:29 PM   #16
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Religion of Peace

Indeed, the Chechynan 'anti-imperialist freedom fighters' don't look so appealing now. Not that Russia is any great shakes, but at least it's largely secular.
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Old 11-17-2005, 06:49 PM   #17
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Originally posted by melon


Absolutely nothing. They hate homosexuals as much as they do. After all, our religious fanatics have been quite busy lately making sure of that.

Melon

please don't make that comparison.
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Old 11-17-2005, 06:55 PM   #18
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Plenty of people in the US do not hate homosexuals melon, I understand what you mean about certain people but they don't speak for me and for so many other people. Please try to keep that in mind. They can't "make sure" of anything for me and for many others.

It is disgusting that the leadership of this country does not speak out against this outrage, certainly they don't condone it. They are condoning it by their silence, one could say.
You misunderstood me. Those in power, those who wield all the influence in the U.S. right now hate homosexuals as much as Iran does. Why beat around the Bush? We're passing Orwellian "Defense of Marriage" acts like candy these days, and any time anyone talks about extending even simple gay rights, we get nothing but opposition and bitterness. We are really little better than these countries, so I hope America doesn't pat itself on the back just because it hasn't gone as far as to give homosexuals the death penalty. They've pretty much been as unwelcome as can be outside of that.

If people don't like me stating simple facts as this, then do me a favor and vote out your current elected officials in favor of politicians who actually give a fuck.

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Old 11-17-2005, 06:56 PM   #19
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I find that comparison quite ridiculous and self-serving.
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Old 11-17-2005, 07:04 PM   #20
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
I find that comparison quite ridiculous and self-serving.
Yes, well, it's easy to make that statement standing from the outside, now isn't it?

Here's my main point: the West bothers me in how it tends to absolve itself from guilt by pointing at third-world countries that are worse. I'm sorry, but there's a saying that "charity begins at home." If you want nations like Iran and Saudi Arabia to clean up their acts, you have to set the example. Indeed, Iranian students are smart enough to realize that much of what Bush states is empty rhetoric, and they see the domestic theocracy he supports here in the U.S., while telling Iran they should be more secular.

Likewise, if you want homosexuals to be better treated globally, you have to set the example. Spreading lies about how dangerous they are to children and denying them the right to have stable relationships and families is a horrendous insult, and if the West wants a pat on the back, they can fuck off. There is still much MUCH more they have to do before they can do that.

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Old 11-17-2005, 07:28 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon


You misunderstood me. Those in power, those who wield all the influence in the U.S. right now hate homosexuals as much as Iran does. Why beat around the Bush? We're passing Orwellian "Defense of Marriage" acts like candy these days, and any time anyone talks about extending even simple gay rights, we get nothing but opposition and bitterness. We are really little better than these countries, so I hope America doesn't pat itself on the back just because it hasn't gone as far as to give homosexuals the death penalty. They've pretty much been as unwelcome as can be outside of that.

If people don't like me stating simple facts as this, then do me a favor and vote out your current elected officials in favor of politicians who actually give a fuck.

Melon
While I am opposed to the ludicrous "defense of marriage" laws and other gay legislation, equating that to execution is pushing it.

You do have it far better here than you would if you lived in Iran. And you also have it better here than if you'd been born 50 or so years ago. Has it been fast enough? No. Is it good enough? No.
But you do not face legal execution. Big difference.
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Old 11-17-2005, 07:31 PM   #22
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Alright then silence about executing homosexuals until all sections of your society achieves complete and full recognition of gay marriage.

I think that all western countries can oppose this though without any cries of hypocrisy
Quote:
Iran: Death penalty/imminent execution: Karim Fahimi, also known as Karim Shalo (m).

PUBLIC AI Index: MDE 13/069/2005
14 November 2005

UA 289/05 Death penalty/imminent execution

IRAN Karim Fahimi, also known as Karim Shalo (m)

Karim Fahimi was sentenced to death in June. The sentence has now been upheld
by the Supreme Court, and he could be executed at any time.

Karim Fahimi, a Kurd, who is married with two young children, was reportedly
sentenced to death for drinking alcohol, by a court in the city of Sardasht,
western Iran. It was at least the third time he had been convicted of the
offence: under article 174 of the Iranian Penal Code, the penalty for consuming
any intoxicant is 100 lashes; under article 179, this penalty may be handed
down twice, but a third conviction carries the death penalty.
link
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Old 11-17-2005, 07:33 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by indra
While I am opposed to the ludicrous "defense of marriage" laws and other gay legislation, equating that to execution is pushing it.

You do have it far better here than you would if you lived in Iran. And you also have it better here than if you'd been born 50 or so years ago. Has it been fast enough? No. Is it good enough? No.
But you do not face legal execution. Big difference.
Alright. So Iran is an evil, evil bad nasty place. What are we going to do about it? Pat ourselves on the back for the fact that the U.S. openly hates homosexuals and does everything in its power to make their lives hell short of killing them?

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Old 11-17-2005, 07:35 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Alright then silence about executing homosexuals until all sections of your society achieves complete and full recognition of gay marriage.[/URL]

I think this sentence is probably the most bizarre and wrongheaded mis-representation of another poster's views I have ever seen in FYM.
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Old 11-17-2005, 07:36 PM   #25
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Alright then silence about executing homosexuals until all sections of your society achieves complete and full recognition of gay marriage.

I think that all western countries can oppose this though without any cries of hypocrisylink
George Bush hates gay people. There's a Kanye West-like statement, but it hasn't been a secret that these nations have been hostile to gay people for years. This "new news" is old news to me. And where has the American government been? Silent. And what do you think Bush will do now? Nothing. He won't want to risk the ire of the Christian Taliban. Focus on the Fascism and the Khristian Koalition wouldn't hear of such compassion.

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Old 11-17-2005, 07:38 PM   #26
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Are homosexuals in the USA legally prevented from certain employment, education, freedom of movement or freedom of expression?

Are the groups driving this campaign part of government or are they independent organisations that try to exert their agenda however they may?

What are the major forms of discrimination against homosexuals in the USA today and how can they be alleviated?

I understand that you didn't say that Bush and his cadre are doing the same things or that defence of marriage acts are morally the same as executions, I recognise that you were talking about intent.
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Old 11-17-2005, 07:43 PM   #27
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Are homosexuals in the USA legally prevented from certain employment, education, freedom of movement or freedom of expression?
1) Gays can be fired from their job for being gay in many states, yes.

2) Some colleges have expelled homosexuals, and public high schools have done the same.

3) There is no mechanism for uniting bi-national same-sex couples in the U.S. Period.

4) The freedom to marry is a freedom of expression.

Quote:
Are the groups driving this campaign part of government or are they independent organisations that try to exert their agenda however they may?
They might as well be part of the government, considering how much influence the Bush Administration gives them.

Quote:
What are the major forms of discrimination against homosexuals in the USA today and how can they be alleviated?
The lack of civil protections and laws that discourage stable relationships are certainly the main two. How can they be alleviated? Actually enforcing the equal protection clause of the Constitution, and realizing that all these anti-homosexual laws in this country are a violation of that, just as segregation laws targeted towards racial minorities were a violation of that clause too.

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Old 11-17-2005, 07:44 PM   #28
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
I understand that you didn't say that Bush and his cadre are doing the same things or that defence of marriage acts are morally the same as executions, I recognise that you were talking about intent.
Thank you. It is "intent" that I am referring to.

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Old 11-17-2005, 07:55 PM   #29
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1) Gays can be fired from their job for being gay in many states, yes.

Now are there unfair dismissal laws or laws against discrimination on the basis of sexuality in these states? Avenues of appeal, possibilities of lawsuits.

2) Some colleges have expelled homosexuals, and public high schools have done the same.

I think that some colleges can and would do that, but public high schools are government institutions, are there not strong provisions against discrimation there?

3) There is no mechanism for uniting bi-national same-sex couples in the U.S. Period.

Do they recognise de-facto heterosexual relationships and allow provisions for immigration on that basis?

4) The freedom to marry is a freedom of expression.

It is also a legal recognition of a relationship that has ramifications, it can be a religious practice (but that is quite inconcequential since if gay marriage was recognised then churches would still have the right not to perform ceremonies).

They might as well be part of the government, considering how much influence the Bush Administration gives them.

But they are not part of government, they are lobby groups and public figureheads, in the electoral cycle they can loose influence if the political climate changes.

The lack of civil protections and laws that discourage stable relationships are certainly the main two. How can they be alleviated? Actually enforcing the equal protection clause of the Constitution, and realizing that all these anti-homosexual laws in this country are a violation of that, just as segregation laws targeted towards racial minorities were a violation of that clause too.

I agree on this point, I disagree in principle with "gay rights" as a form of special protections and entitlements but establishing a consistent enforcement that recognises relationships regardless of sexuality is a better way to go.
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Old 11-17-2005, 08:09 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
1) Gays can be fired from their job for being gay in many states, yes.

Now are there unfair dismissal laws or laws against discrimination on the basis of sexuality in these states? Avenues of appeal, possibilities of lawsuits.
No. It is not a federally-protected class from discrimination, so they are fair game in states that do not have laws on this.

Quote:
2) Some colleges have expelled homosexuals, and public high schools have done the same.

I think that some colleges can and would do that, but public high schools are government institutions, are there not strong provisions against discrimation there?
Again, with no federal protections--and every attempt has been thwarted by the Republican-controlled Congress over the last 11 years--schools are often given a free ride to be discriminatory and insulting.

Quote:
3) There is no mechanism for uniting bi-national same-sex couples in the U.S. Period.

Do they recognise de-facto heterosexual relationships and allow provisions for immigration on that basis?
There's a difference. Heterosexuals can get married. Homosexuals, since federal law prohibits recognition of gay relationships, have no avenue for sponsoring their partners; and federal law determines immigration policy. So even if you got married in Massachusetts--the one state where full-blown gay marriage is legal--it would not be recognized by the federal government.

Quote:
4) The freedom to marry is a freedom of expression.

It is also a legal recognition of a relationship that has ramifications, it can be a religious practice (but that is quite inconcequential since if gay marriage was recognised then churches would still have the right not to perform ceremonies).
It would only be a religious practice if government did not assign so many civil rights and protections to marriage. As it is, you don't need religion to get married. And the bastion of never-ending hypocrisy, the Catholic Church, doesn't even recognize any marriage that isn't performed in their church. So, in their eyes, "married" heterosexual Protestants are all living in sin. As such, there is precedent that civil marriage and religious marriage are, indeed, two separate entities even if they are called the same name.

Quote:
They might as well be part of the government, considering how much influence the Bush Administration gives them.

But they are not part of government, they are lobby groups and public figureheads, in the electoral cycle they can loose influence if the political climate changes.
If blacks had to wait for the South to change, they'd still be slaves. Instead, they had the luxury of the North defeating them in the Civil War with readmission into the union tied to ratifying two amendments that ensured the end of slavery and equality for blacks. I wish similar blackmail could be used today to force gay rights and equality. We only live once, after all.

Quote:
The lack of civil protections and laws that discourage stable relationships are certainly the main two. How can they be alleviated? Actually enforcing the equal protection clause of the Constitution, and realizing that all these anti-homosexual laws in this country are a violation of that, just as segregation laws targeted towards racial minorities were a violation of that clause too.

I agree on this point, I disagree in principle with "gay rights" as a form of special protections and entitlements but establishing a consistent enforcement that recognises relationships regardless of sexuality is a better way to go.
If we're going to talk "consistent enforcement," laws already exist giving heterosexuals as many rights as they could ever want. The same do not exist for homosexuals, so if we are going to talk about "equality," then let's do it. The thing is, those who whine about "special rights" are nothing but virulent homophobes anyway.

Melon
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