HomoSexuality

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Justin24

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Ok I have some questions.

--If a person dislikes gay's, lesbians and transgender they are labled homophobic or a bigot. So does that mean islam and christianity fall under that category?

What about people who were born in the earlier centuries? Did they believe that homosexuality was a disease or someone wanting to be gay or lesbian or transgender?


I just want to get some input on this. If you have other things you want to add go ahead.
 
Justin24 said:
Ok I have some questions.

--If a person dislikes gay's, lesbians and transgender they are labled homophobic or a bigot. So does that mean islam and christianity fall under that category?


Yup. The conservative versions, at least.

What about people who were born in the earlier centuries? Did they believe that homosexuality was a disease or someone wanting to be gay or lesbian or transgender?

They sure did. It was a crime punishable by instant execution if you were caught openly doing anything homosexual.
 
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DaveC said:

They sure did. It was a crime punishable by instant execution if you were caught openly doing anything homosexual.
You might want to tell the ancient Greeks about that one.
 
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A_Wanderer said:
You might want to tell the ancient Greeks about that one.

True. I think persecution didn't start until the rise of christianity and islam.
 
Justin24 said:
Ok I have some questions.

--If a person dislikes gay's, lesbians and transgender they are labled homophobic or a bigot. So does that mean islam and christianity fall under that category?

Without a doubt.

What about people who were born in the earlier centuries? Did they believe that homosexuality was a disease or someone wanting to be gay or lesbian or transgender?

The biggest problem with answering this question is that the definitions have changed. In Biblical times, most same-sex relations were in the context of pederasty (old man, teenage boy) or idolatrous temple cult practices. In both cases, we were essentially dealing with bisexual practices, as adults in both instances were expected to marry the opposite sex. As such, it was always seen as a "choice" that otherwise heterosexual people made in lust.

Of course, marriage was seen as more of a business contract until the 19th century, where love was unimportant, so having side affairs was not uncommon, and more than one Roman emperor loved their teenage slave boy more than their legal wife.

Complicating this even further is that these practices were all wiped out in the latter part of the Roman Empire, before the rise of modern vernacular languages. As such, when encountered with an obsolete word from a dead language, a lot of religions just inserted their prejudice and assumed that it translated as "homosexuality" as we know it today.

Melon
 
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melon said:


Without a doubt.

Melon

But what if it's there religious belife. You cant help that. If a person is gay they cant help being happy with who they are. If they were born gay are proud of it good for them. If a person chooses to be muslim or christian and has those beliefs good for them, but when they die will it really be good for them.

I am sure gays and lesbians have the same hate as do muslims and christians.
 
Justin24 said:
--If a person dislikes gay's, lesbians and transgender they are labled homophobic or a bigot. So does that mean islam and christianity fall under that category?

Theologically speaking (regarding Christianity, I can't speak for Islam), there is a disconect in the way you phrased the question. Scripture does not say "dislike those who are gay". It only says that homosexual acts are sin. A sin no different than all the others spelled out in Scripture.

How people respond to Scripture would shed light on how you want to label them.
 
There is always a "bad apple in the bunch" and as nbcrusader stated the sin is in the act itself. Act should be a key word not hate, or discriminate.
 
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nbcrusader said:
It only says that homosexual acts are sin.

It doesn't even really say that. People have just connected dots with ambiguously written archaic words from dead languages.

But pretty much all of it is consistent with the idea of same-sex relations being viewed as rape, idolatry, or pederasty, none of which reflects homosexuality of today.

Anyway, how Christianity treats same-sex relations would be equivalent to me taking the destruction of Gibeah, when God destroyed the city after a gang raped and dismembered a female concubine, and taken that as meaning that all heterosexual acts are sin.

But, as always, minorities are rarely given the nuance that the majority grants itself. What I take away from the Bible is that same-sex rape, idolatry, and pederasty are wrong.

Melon
 
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Justin24 said:


But what if it's there religious belife. You cant help that.


Of course they can help that. Beliefs are just that beliefs. Your beliefs, if you are a healthy minded person, should change with time.

There were a dozen catholic priests in Quebec that sent a letter to the Vatican urging them to reconsider the stance on Gays becoming priests.

They have seen a injustice and have tryed to change the beliefs of the church. They have 'helped' in that way.

Dont get caught in the trap of : Its my beliefs defense because its cowardly.
 
They are wrong because they are sins... As God told Moses Lev:18:22 "do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman, that is detestable, that i from the old testement.


in the new testement: Cor 1 6:9

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be decieved. Neither the sexually immoral nor idolators nor adulterers not male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders not theives not the greedy nor the drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

So basically it is saying that if you commit any of the above acts, which are sinful you will not go to heaven until you are redeemed.
 
JCOSTER said:
They are wrong because they are sins... As God told Moses Lev:18:22 "do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman, that is detestable, that i from the old testement.


in the new testement: Cor 1 6:9

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be decieved. Neither the sexually immoral nor idolators nor adulterers not male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders not theives not the greedy nor the drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

So basically it is saying that if you commit any of the above acts, which are sinful you will not go to heaven until you are redeemed.

Funny...whatever I write on this subject, I always get the same old pathetic Bible verses.

Remember when I mentioned archaic terms with no comparable word in modern vernacular languages? You've pretty much recited just that.

The Leviticus passage is ambiguous, because the Hebrew says:

"Ish shall not lie with zakar as with ishah. It is toe'vah."

The archaic term in question is "zakar." If it really meant to say that man should not lie with another man, it would have said "ish" twice. Instead, "zakar" could be a word in reference to a temple prostitute--maybe even a female temple prostitute. Or maybe none of the above. We don't know, so Bible translators inserted their bias hundreds of years ago. But even if it was a male temple prostitute, which was common in pagan temple cults, it goes back to square one: idolatry.

Secondly, "toe'vah" is a phrase that referred to Jewish purity codes, meaning that the word "abomination" or "detestable" is a hyperbolic translation. It's essentially a phrase of ritual taboo.

Even then, even conservative Protestant interpretations of Acts 15 interpret it to mean a revocation of the purity codes of Mosaic Law (despite the fact that the written text clearly revokes the whole damn thing, minus three archaic concepts involving blood mixing and eating food offered to idols).

Corinthians 1...it's such a joke that it's not even funny. Wanna know how the homophobic old Catholic Church interprets that passage?

The Greek word translated as boy prostitutes [translated above as "male prostitutes] may refer to catamites, i.e., boys or young men who were kept for purposes of prostitution, a practice not uncommon in the Greco-Roman world. In Greek mythology this was the function of Ganymede, the "cupbearer of the gods," whose Latin name was Catamitus. The term translated Sodomites [translated above as "homosexual offenders"] refers to adult males who indulged in homosexual practices with such boys. See similar condemnations of such practices in Romans 1:26-27; 1 Tim 1:10.

So, really, I'm back to square one again: idolatry with the cult of Ganymede and pederasty.

Melon
 
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It's all in the translation baby!!!!!!

People might actually translate it to mean what they want because they were biased?

WHAT?

LOL
 
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JCOSTER said:
They are wrong because they are sins... As God told Moses Lev:18:22 "do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman, that is detestable, that i from the old testement.


in the new testement: Cor 1 6:9

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be decieved. Neither the sexually immoral nor idolators nor adulterers not male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders not theives not the greedy nor the drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

So basically it is saying that if you commit any of the above acts, which are sinful you will not go to heaven until you are redeemed.



or, you could just listen to your conscience, and understand that Scripture requires human interpretation AND reflects the biases and prejudices of the authors (as all texts do), and you can look around you and realize that gay people are human and their "acts" are every bit as integral to who they are as they are to you, and you can get to know gay people and understand that homosexuality is just the same as heterosexuality only with the same gender, and you can thusly arrive at the conclusion that the worst way to justify homophobia is with Scripture.
 
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nbcrusader said:


That's not saying much. Each side is using the "its my beliefs" defense.



so let's stop believing and start thinking and use our eyes and ears and brains and arrive at the thoroughly rational conclusion that gay people are people and it seems pretty much impossible to think that loving god who made gay people in his image as much as he made straight people in his image would then make said "acts" that distinguish gay people from straight people permissible for some, but not for others.

i love being reduced to acts. if you (the Royal "you", not NBC) look at me and all you can see is buttsex, then you've got bigger problems with God to worry about.
 
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Irvine511 said:
i love being reduced to acts. if you (the Royal "you", not NBC) look at me and all you can see is buttsex, then you've got bigger problems with God to worry about.

I agree with you here.
 
I was just stating where it comes from I didn't write it, I do however believe in the writings from the bible....

Just because I am a believer does not mean I discriminate because I do not under any circumstances to anyone whatsoever.

Whatever sins people commit including myself, the only person they have to answer to is God.

I do not judge a book by its cover at all.

and for the record, I have gay friends and gay family members....so I am not out of a loop.

I am not going to stand here and say because thats what the bible says....people will have to answer someday and its not to me, and no we ourselves should not take it upon ourselves to hand out the punishment for the sins cited in those verses.

Funny, how I truly believe in Coexisting and it never seems to work out on this web site not matter what you say..... :rant:


So back to square one, just trying to help with answering the questions....and gee I feel a little discrimated against because...
of what I said :scream:
 
In the course of "converting" from Orthodox to Conservative Judaism, I read dozens and dozens of responsa (rabbinic debates) concerning homosexuality in general and the Leviticus passages in particular. Some were reflective and meta-ethical in tone; others were narrowly linguistic and sometimes veered into outright sophistry. I don't really see the point in reviewing all them here, but just out of curiosity, I'll toss out one of the unspoken background concerns that haunts all Jewish debates on this topic, which I imagine is to some extent relevant for Christians too.

Once you've accepted in principle that the relevant Biblical passages need not constitute a blanket ban on all homosexual acts, and that the range of potential of homosexual relationships as we understand them today was lost on the original sources--where do you go from there in defining what a religiously observant homosexual relationship might look like? This problem does not exist to any significant degree for heterosexual marriages--you can still observe the most ancient precepts of your faith pertaining to such relationships, while at the same time subscribing to far newer views of "heterosexuality" as union between free and autonomous individuals pursuing romantic love and personal fulfillment through mutually entered commitments, blah blah blah etc. etc. etc. But the analogous precedents are simply not there for homosexual relationships. What would an observant Jewish gay marriage look like? An observant Catholic one? Does or should it change anything about sex before or outside of marriage? About modesty in dress and acts? About which partner is responsible for overseeing which aspects of children's moral and spiritual development (e.g., would one partner need to be designated a "mother" and the other a "father" for purposes of observance)? Would there be any danger of creating a new set of double standards, where gay couples would be held to a different standard in various ways than straight couples?
 
where do you go from there in defining what a religiously observant homosexual relationship might look like?

Like anyone of us.....no matter race, or color, or culture.


and yes Earnie Shavers we are all in the same boat.:wink:
 
Irvine511 said:




or, you could just listen to your conscience, and understand that Scripture requires human interpretation AND reflects the biases and prejudices of the authors (as all texts do), and you can look around you and realize that gay people are human and their "acts" are every bit as integral to who they are as they are to you, and you can get to know gay people and understand that homosexuality is just the same as heterosexuality only with the same gender, and you can thusly arrive at the conclusion that the worst way to justify homophobia is with Scripture.



Gee, thanks for clearing that up, I don't think in my 40 years of life I new the definition of homosexuality:huh:
 
JCOSTER said:




Gee, thanks for clearing that up, I don't think in my 40 years of life I new the definition of homosexuality:huh:


terrific! now you see that it's unacceptable to discriminate on the basis of homosexuality and to view being gay and having a gay relationship as sinful is logically and theologically absurd! so there's no need to go around quoting Leveticus and Corinthians because they have nothing to do with modern understandings of homosexuality.
 
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nbcrusader said:


I agree with you here.



what about the first part?

does it not make sense that it is entirely illogical for a god to make gay people, and then prohibt them from creating adult romantic relationships?
 
yolland said:
Once you've accepted in principle that the relevant Biblical passages need not constitute a blanket ban on all homosexual acts, and that the range of potential of homosexual relationships as we understand them today was lost on the original sources--where do you go from there in defining what a religiously observant homosexual relationship might look like? ... But the analogous precedents are simply not there for homosexual relationships. What would an observant Jewish gay marriage look like? An observant Catholic one? Does or should it change anything about sex before or outside of marriage? About modesty in dress and acts? About which partner is responsible for overseeing which aspects of children's moral and spiritual development (e.g., would one partner need to be designated a "mother" and the other a "father" for purposes of observance)? Would there be any danger of creating a new set of double standards, where gay couples would be held to a different standard in various ways than straight couples?

Those sound like pretty manageable challenges for a religion that's been around over 4000 years. It would probably help once homosexual marraiges are permitted in societies, thereby allowing religious leaders to view the formation of "analogous precedents." Sure, it may take a few generations and a few hundred years, but religions, if they have a progressive enough spirit, can catch up.
 
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Justin24 said:
What about people who were born in the earlier centuries? Did they believe that homosexuality was a disease or someone wanting to be gay or lesbian or transgender?

Actualy, if you go to Bible.com, you find as an answer to homosexuality that a demonic spirit has taken pocessin of one's mind to make him/her do sins.

I hope that answers your question... People were brainwashed by religion in the past. Today, unfortunatly, some are still into that state.
 
They may be in a state of not accepting that person, but the belife in a demon taking over is now in the past. Homophobia will be around forever. You can't change people. God will still love those people. Jesus would forgive the homophobic people and would ask each of us to love one another no matter what.
 
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