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Old 03-07-2006, 06:45 PM   #46
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I have no problem with you judging the hate groups. I despise them. My grandpa fought against the Nazis in WW2. But they as humans have a right to there own views to even if we do not agree with them. I have said in other posts that Islam is backwards and needs to start living in the 21st century and treat woman, and everyone with respect and humanity. This goes with China also and N.Korea.
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Old 03-07-2006, 06:52 PM   #47
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I have no problem with you judging the hate groups. I despise them. My grandpa fought against the Nazis in WW2. But they as humans have a right to there own views to even if we do not agree with them. I have said in other posts that Islam is backwards and needs to start living in the 21st century and treat woman, and everyone with respect and humanity. This goes with China also and N.Korea.
The United States has had a long tradition of liberal attitudes towards hate speech. I'm not advocating changing the status quo to making it illegal, mainly because it has worked well for the U.S., thus far. By keeping the hate groups out in the open, we kept aware of what's brewing out there and can deal with them appropriately if they cross the line into illegal terrorist activity.

At the same time, while neo-Nazis and the KKK are allowed to believe whatever the hell they like, we also do not give their twisted, bigoted ideology the time of day. That is not the same with homophobia. That twisted, bigoted ideology actually gets legislation and amendments voted on at the state and federal levels, and their pseudoscience is actually used as "testimony" in support. Now just imagine if some state legislature used KKK-derived pseudoscience to support legislation targeted against blacks, because of "scientific studies" that prove them to be genetically dumber and prone to crime? We'd rightfully shout them down. But when it comes to sponsoring homophobic legislation, pseudoscience comes out of the woodwork and nobody does anything to stop it.

That's the difference.

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Old 03-07-2006, 06:54 PM   #48
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Sure that may happen in the midwest or south, but if you come to San Francisco, which has one of the biggest gay communities, there is alot of support for them.
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Old 03-07-2006, 06:56 PM   #49
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Sure that may happen in the midwest or south, but if you come to San Francisco, which has one of the biggest gay communities, there is alot of support for them.
I should not have to move to San Francisco to have full civil rights and protections under the law. If I want to live in fucking Alabama, I should not have to be a second-class citizen under the law, just because the majority thinks that way.

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Old 03-07-2006, 06:58 PM   #50
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whoa whoa calm down. Most Americans accept Homosexuality. Things are changing. Not as fast but they are. And Homosexuals do have civil rights in this country. Many insurance companies allow there "partners" on insurance. Jobs cannot discrimminate.
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Old 03-07-2006, 07:08 PM   #51
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And Homosexuals do have civil rights in this country. Many insurance companies allow there "partners" on insurance. Jobs cannot discrimminate.
Most states are passing "Defense of Marriage" amendments that seek to invalidate those rights, and jobs CAN discriminate, unless there are state laws that specifically protect against that discrimination.

There is progress, but there are also a lot of reactionary forces in America that believe that any rights for homosexuals are evil.

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Old 03-07-2006, 07:09 PM   #52
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I thought it was a federal law that prohibits discrimmination of sex, race, gender, etc...
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Old 03-07-2006, 07:10 PM   #53
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I should not have to move to San Francisco to have full civil rights and protections under the law. If I want to live in fucking Alabama, I should not have to be a second-class citizen under the law, just because the majority thinks that way.

Melon
Hey, you're welcome to come here to Alabama and help us keep Roy Moore out of the statehouse. He's promising to make life even more hellish for our gay citizens.
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Old 03-07-2006, 07:12 PM   #54
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I thought it was a federal law that prohibits discrimmination of sex, race, gender, etc...
As interpreted by those currently in power, sexual orientation is not covered under that law. As such, it would be perfectly legal to fire someone based on perceived sexual orientation. I should underline "perceived," because there are heterosexuals who have been discriminated against, due to some bigoted authority figure who thought he/she was gay.

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Old 03-07-2006, 07:13 PM   #55
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Do you have an article I can read up on, Mr.Moore about this?
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Old 03-07-2006, 07:15 PM   #56
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Do you have an article I can read up on, Mr.Moore about this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Moore

Here you go. He's best known as the "Ten Commandments" judge, who was removed from the Alabama Supreme Court for refusing to enforce a court ruling that the Alabama Ten Commandments monument that he erected was unconstitutional.

Without a doubt, he probably has plenty of other paleoconservative attitudes.

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Old 03-07-2006, 07:18 PM   #57
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Ok now I remember him. duhh. Well we dont know about that unless he has publicly stated his agenda on homosexual rights.
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Old 03-07-2006, 07:23 PM   #58
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Ok now I remember him. duhh. Well we dont know about that unless he has publicly stated his agenda on homosexual rights.
I would venture to say, without a doubt, that someone who believes that the Ten Commandments are the basis for all law in the U.S. (a contention I highly disagree with), and believes that the "Judeo-Christian God" has sovereignity over the state and church, he would never in a million years support gay rights.

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Old 03-07-2006, 07:24 PM   #59
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Would Jesus support Gay rights, Mohommod, Moses, Noah, Mary??
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Old 03-07-2006, 07:33 PM   #60
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^ I can only speak to what Moses and Noah would have said which would be...nope. "Gay rights"--and for that matter, "heterosexuality"--as we understand it today entails a whole array of uniquely modern concepts like individualism, romantic love, personal fulfillment, sexual orientation, and moral autonomy which would have been completely foreign to these men's way of understanding the world.
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But dont loose home on humanity, as a catholic/christian they are your brother or sister and you must love them no matter what.
There is nothing unloving about standing up for fairness and equality before the law--on the contrary it is one of the most loving things you could possibly do, and to oppose it one of the least.
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Somehow, this is supposed to be better? Please.

... instead, their beliefs are based on medieval tradition in "natural law."
I agree that analogizing premarital (hetero)sex to gay sex, period, doesn't hold water. Premarital sex can be readily enough avoided by simply waiting until you're married to have sex. Avoiding gay sex would require a lifetime of celibacy if you're gay. It is not right or just for heterosexuals to have their cake and eat it too where love and personal fulfillment are concerned--if we really want to uphold marriage as it was understood in Biblical times, then let's go back to mandatory marriage for all to a partner of your parents' choosing in early teenagehood, with mandatory bearing of as many children as you can conceive shortly to follow.

Regarding the influence of Thomism on Catholic tradition, I also have always found this to be a contradiction in some ways, on the other hand it also does establish a precedent for human interpretation of Scripture that clearly and honestly acknowledges the role of secular thought in informing said interpretations. After reading Aquinas myself (one of the sharpest philosophical minds in human history, IMO), I could not help but find it ironic that the legacy of this man--who had to get his doctorate under armed guard because so many sought to assassinate him for daring to suggest Christian thought could benefit from systematic application of the rigorous logical system of (pagan) Greek philosophy--has come to be associated with intellectual stagnation and resistance to engagement of other perspectives.
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Those sound like pretty manageable challenges for a religion that's been around over 4000 years. It would probably help once homosexual marraiges are permitted in societies, thereby allowing religious leaders to view the formation of "analogous precedents." Sure, it may take a few generations and a few hundred years, but religions, if they have a progressive enough spirit, can catch up.
Yes, certainly they are manageable challenges, though I would prefer to avoid the few generations and few hundred years part if possible. These are not necessarily challenges for me personally but for the rabbis, they are. The combined sweep of legal literature pertaining to marriage in the Bible, Talmud and responsa is staggeringly vast and detailed and took many centuries to be worked out. Some of it would be readily applicable to any form of marriage, once sanctioned in principle; but much of it is not. Much would effectively have to be created from scratch and while such projects are certainly not unprecedented, the scope of this particular one would be vast. I just think it is interesting and important to consider the question of, Once fundamental acceptance of the moral viability of homosexuality is achieved...what comes next?
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