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Old 03-07-2006, 02:50 PM   #31
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Originally posted by Irvine511



terrific! now you see that it's unacceptable to discriminate on the basis of homosexuality and to view being gay and having a gay relationship as sinful is logically and theologically absurd! so there's no need to go around quoting Leveticus and Corinthians because they have nothing to do with modern understandings of homosexuality.

DISCRIMINATION IS NOT IN MY USE OF LANGUAGE.
LET ME STATE AGAIN IT IS THE ACTUAL ACT WHICH IS THE SIN!
JUST THE SAME FOR AN UNMARRIED HETEROSEXUAL COUPLE!
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Old 03-07-2006, 03:07 PM   #32
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DISCRIMINATION IS NOT IN MY USE OF LANGUAGE.
LET ME STATE AGAIN IT IS THE ACTUAL ACT WHICH IS THE SIN!
JUST THE SAME FOR AN UNMARRIED HETEROSEXUAL COUPLE!


well, then hopefully you support full marriage rights for homosexuals so they can get married and have god-approved "actual acts."

it seems silly to condemn people for sinning when society denies them they very tools that would enable them not to sin.
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Old 03-07-2006, 03:18 PM   #33
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This is my view ok I am not a homophob or a bigot. But Homosexuals should be allowed to be married by civil union. When it comes to the church, well take it up with them. God will judge the actions of the indiviuals getting married and the church, etc..
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Old 03-07-2006, 03:56 PM   #34
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well, then hopefully you support full marriage rights for homosexuals so they can get married and have god-approved "actual acts."

it seems silly to condemn people for sinning when society denies them they very tools that would enable them not to sin.

I don't condem or punish anyone...thats not my job its someone elses...
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Old 03-07-2006, 04:08 PM   #35
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This is my view ok I am not a homophob or a bigot. But Homosexuals should be allowed to be married by civil union. When it comes to the church, well take it up with them. God will judge the actions of the indiviuals getting married and the church, etc..
Justin, just wondering: do you care whether these civil unions are called "marriage" or not?
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Old 03-07-2006, 05:01 PM   #36
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They are marriage but in political terms there called Civil Unions. Even in San Francisco ( a very liberal city) they call them civil unions.
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Old 03-07-2006, 05:23 PM   #37
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I am a liberal Roman Catholic, and I support the Gay Pride movement in my Church. Hell will freeze over before an American Catholic Cardinal is elected Pope, trust me.
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Old 03-07-2006, 05:51 PM   #38
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I think after all these Child Molestations, we will never see an American Pope.
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Old 03-07-2006, 06:00 PM   #39
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I think after all these Child Molestations, we will never see an American Pope.
Because the Vatican does not volunteer information, only American bishops have been given the blame, due to our rather vigorous investigations here. But, rest assured, it likely happens all over the world.

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Old 03-07-2006, 06:07 PM   #40
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They are marriage but in political terms there called Civil Unions. Even in San Francisco ( a very liberal city) they call them civil unions.
What tends to bother me about talk like this is that, somehow, we're supposed to placate the most conservative of religious belief systems in this country, while ignoring the fact that some religious denominations do believe in gay marriage.

Even then, it also ignores the fact that many people carry religious beliefs independent of institutional groupthink.

What I would prefer most of all is consistency. France has de-facto civil unions for heterosexuals, while maintaining the name "marriage." That is, for the state to recognize ANY marriage, a ceremony must be held in front of a civil justice of the peace. If you want a religious ceremony, then go ahead...go to your church. But it does not, under any circumstances, have legal authority. As such, those religiously-minded French have two "marriage ceremonies."

However, if Americans refuse to acknowledge that "marriage" has both a religious and civil aspect, then I want the name, "civil union," to be used for ALL state recognition of any couples, heterosexual or homosexual. And, like France, if a couple wants legal recognition, they should have to have two ceremonies: a legally binding one with a civil justice of the peace and a ceremonial one with the religious authority of your choice. The Catholic Church already has an attitude like this. If a Catholic couple does not have a ceremony approved by a Catholic priest, then, in the eyes of the church, you're not married. Sure, you might have a legal marriage, but, in the eyes of the Catholic church, you're still unmarried.

Of course, this isn't about fairness or consistency. It's about a bunch of religious nuts wanting control, asserting "heterosexual supremacism."

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Old 03-07-2006, 06:13 PM   #41
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Originally posted by JCOSTER
DISCRIMINATION IS NOT IN MY USE OF LANGUAGE.
LET ME STATE AGAIN IT IS THE ACTUAL ACT WHICH IS THE SIN!
JUST THE SAME FOR AN UNMARRIED HETEROSEXUAL COUPLE!
Somehow, this is supposed to be better? Please.

And people wonder why I have such low opinions of Christianity today. I had 13 valuable years of Catholic education, and I appreciate every amount of in-depth religious education I received. But hell...after reading all this nonsense after a while, I really start wishing that the Bible was just as lost and forgotten as the Zoroastrian "Avesta."

It's hard for me to stomach a lot of evangelical Protestant theology after a while, mainly because most of its logic trail is completely foreign to me, and I often received education to the complete contrary. That enough should be proof that government should be secular, because there is not even consistency with what constitutes "Christian beliefs," let alone trying to reconcile non-Christian beliefs into America.

Since we're going to talk about sin, if you've ever masturbated or had oral sex with your spouse, if you've used birth control of any kind, you're going to rot in hell, according to the Catholic Church. After all, sex is only for making babies, right?

And to complicate things further for me, Catholicism's teachings against homosexuality are not Biblically based--those in the highest of echelons in the Vatican have even admitted at times that there is no Biblical basis for modern homosexuality--but, instead, their beliefs are based on medieval tradition in "natural law."

So for those of us who do not treat the Bible literally (as the Catholic Church teaches) and similarly question the validity of church tradition (as I and many others do), I guess we're plain out of luck after a while?

So fucking much for "religious freedom." Religion just makes me sick after a while.

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Old 03-07-2006, 06:19 PM   #42
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You may never convince people that homosexualty is fine and natural. But dont loose home on humanity, as a catholic/christian they are your brother or sister and you must love them no matter what.
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Old 03-07-2006, 06:20 PM   #43
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I don't condem or punish anyone...thats not my job its someone elses...


but you feel perfectly fine telling other people that they are going to be condemned and judged according to your understanding of a highly contested text.

what's the difference?
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Old 03-07-2006, 06:38 PM   #44
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but you feel perfectly fine telling other people that they are going to be condemned and judged according to your understanding of a highly contested text.

what's the difference?
But you also judge people for being homophobes. If they want to be, who are you to judge. just saying.
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Old 03-07-2006, 06:40 PM   #45
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But you also judge people for being homophobes. If they want to be, who are you to judge. just saying.
I will judge them the same way I judge neo-Nazis, KKK klansmen, and Islamic nations that deny women rights supposedly based on the Koran.

No more, no less.

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