HomoSexuality

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Justin24 said:
Would Jesus support Gay rights, Mohommod, Moses, Noah, Mary??

I'm not going to venture as to what Muhammad would do (since I don't believe in his divinity). Likewise, I believe that Moses and Noah are mostly figures of mythology. I believe most "Mosaic Law" was written by agents of Persian King Cyrus the Great, who, rather than forcing his subjects to convert to the state religion, Zoroastrianism, would instead subvert local religions and change them beyond recognition to ensure loyalty. Much of Mosaic Law echos Avestan purity codes, who themselves likely have origins from the Sumerian and Babylonian civilizations.

As such, I'm not surprised that Jesus defied Mosaic Law, much to the anger of the Pharisees.

But as to whether Jesus or Mary would support gay rights, Mary makes absolutely no theological positions in the Bible, and if you believe in Marian apparitions, she has never once spoken out against it. In fact, much of her messages are generally quite consistent with Protestant ideas of faith over good works. Her apparitions have always emphasized faith, repentance, and prayer in a general sense.

In terms of Jesus, he also never spoke out against it, and there's a scholarly question mark regarding the Centurion and his "servant/slave" in the gospels. It was not uncommon in the Roman era for centurions to have a male slave lover. The original Greek in the Gospel of Mark uses a word that could also be translated as meaning "slave" in a homosexual context.

Of course, it's inconclusive from a textual standpoint, whereas logic dictates that a Roman official of any kind would never show any concern for a run of the mill slave that they weren't having sex with. However, if their relationship was of a sexual nature, Jesus never once condemns the centurion, and, instead, commends him for his faith and love.

Melon
 
I am a catholic, but I have watch some documentaries stating that the bible was written well after apostles were dead, so how do we not know that the bible was written by the vatican and meant to be the word of God and same goes with the Koran.
 
Do you believe in the Bible Melon? Do you follow it? If you do why do you not listen to Livitcus??
 
Justin24 said:
I am a catholic, but I have watch some documentaries stating that the bible was written well after apostles were dead, so how do we not know that the bible was written by the vatican and meant to be the word of God and same goes with the Koran.

There were some interesting characters back in the old days. Some theories have gone as far as to say that all of Christianity was invented by Gnostic philosophy. They were, in many ways, excellent precursors to postmodernism, apparently, and went as far as to say that the actual existence of the Messiah was unimportant. All that mattered was the effect that the existence of the Messiah would have on the world. As such, with this theory, the entire New Testament was written as legends based on proto-Gnostic theology. Not entirely illogical, considering the myriad of texts that were not included in the Bible, and the tendency of all religions to create "legendary scripture."

In the end, really, the validity of anything religious boils down to faith, I guess.

Melon
 
Originally posted by Justin24
Do you believe in the Bible Melon? Do you follow it? If you do why do you not listen to Livitcus??
:huh: melon has already explained in detail what he believes Leviticus actually says.
 
Justin24 said:
Do you believe in the Bible Melon? Do you follow it? If you do why do you not listen to Livitcus??

I believe neither in the fallibility of the Bible or the inerrancy of the Bible. Even if I were a devout Catholic still, the Vatican teaches against both ideas.

But even if I were to believe that the Bible is correct, I would still be influenced by Catholic support for Biblical scholarship, as supported in a papal encyclical written by Pope Pius XI in the late 1930s. The idea is that to know the original interpretation and original words using the earliest available source texts would be to know the true Word of God. It is under this philosophy that the Catholic Church has gladly included changes into newer editions of their Bibles to include knowledge attained from the Dead Sea Scrolls over the last decade or so.

I don't believe in Leviticus, not only because Acts 15 revokes the authority of Mosaic Law, not only because St. Paul's Church of Antioch (the precursor to the modern Catholic Church) blatantly ignored that compromise in Acts 15 immediately after he made it (due to his strong belief that faith in Jesus and love superceded all the ritualism he saw in Mosaic Law), but also because scholarly research indicates that it likely referred to a prohibition against having sex with temple prostitutes, which would have been seen as a horrible idolatrous offense.

Let's say that I've done my research.

Melon
 
Does anyone think that polygamy is right given that each member of the 'family' loves each other as much as say in an ideal hetero/ homo relationship?

If there is nothing morally wrong with homosexuality, shouldn't polygamy be legalized too?
 
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djfeelgood said:
Does anyone think that polygamy is wrong given that each member of the 'family' loves each other as much as say in an ideal hetero/ homo relationship?

If there is nothing morally wrong with homosexuality, shouldn't polygamy be legalized too?

If we're going to argue the morality or immorality of something using the Bible, it should be noted that the Bible has many polygamist marriages in the early Old Testament with no explicit condemnation against it. As such, another question that could be asked is if marriage is going to be defined by primarily Judeo-Christian definitions in the United States, shouldn't polygamy be legalized too?

In reality, you can argue in favor of monogamous marriages, both gay and straight, in humanist terms. Polygamy, more or less, is rarely egalitarian. In the Old Testament, there is some jealousy between Leah and Rachel with Jacob, as Leah knows that Rachel is the one that Jacob loves, not her. In Utah, where there are some de facto polygamist relationships, the problem occurs in that you usually have a much older man marrying young girls, all of whom are generally treated as property.

As such, I have no problem limiting marriages between two people of any gender.

Melon
 
I don't really see the analogy here--polygamy is not a sexual orientation; there is no biological predisposition unique to all polygamists. An argument could be made in favor of legalizing polygamy on freedom of cultural expression grounds, but that is not analogous either--homosexuality (in the modern sense) is not a cultural practice. And I have never heard of a polygamous culture or subculture where romantic love of multiple persons is commonly cited as the rationale for adding another spouse.

Incidentally, polygamy has been banned in Judaism since the tenth century--though Jews living in the Islamic world, where multiple wives were a status symbol, did not uniformly accept the ban, and in fact Israel had to grandfather in a few polygamous marriages among Jews arriving from Arab lands when it was created in 1948.
 
what about someone like me who doesnt give a shit what other peoples sexual orientations are? :cool:

why should i care if you putt from the ruff? :laugh:

unless you hit on me or something. :yuck:
 
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Reason I ask was i read this little bit earlier on and it provoked a few thoughts...

http://www.family.org/cforum/extras/a0032427.cfm
"Why will gay marriage set the table for polygamy? Because there is no place to stop once that Rubicon has been crossed. Historically, the definition of marriage has rested on a foundation of tradition, legal precedent, theology and the overwhelming support of the people. After the introduction of marriage between homosexuals, however, it will be supported by nothing more substantial than the opinion of a single judge or by a black-robed panel of justices. After they have reached their dubious decisions, the family will consist of little more than someone’s interpretation of “rights.” Given that unstable legal climate, it is certain that some self-possessed judge, somewhere, will soon rule that three men or three women can marry. Or five men and two women. Or four and four. Who will be able to deny them that right? The guarantee is implied, we will be told, by the Constitution. Those who disagree will continue to be seen as hate-mongers and bigots. "

Overall the article is fairly biased and aggressively based on assumption but i felt the part above had some pertinance.,
 
I love that the Bible has been brought up here. Let's discuss all the homosexuals in the Bible.
David and Johnathan - the Bible states that they claimed their love was greater for each other than their love for women. And, there is an occassion where johnny boy stripes off all of his clothes right in front of David. Culturally speaking, if David had not wanted his FRIEND to be undressed, this act would've been seen as offensive to David.
Ruth and Naomi - Ruth grabs "hold" of Naomi. The hebrew (i think it's hebrew at least) that is translated in english as "hold" carries a sexual connotation.
Ooh and here's the big bang!!!!
Jesus and John. Yes, that's right. At the last supper John is laying all over Jesus. John is the disciple Jesus says he loves. Hmm.....
 
djfeelgood said:
Reason I ask was i read this little bit earlier on and it provoked a few thoughts...

http://www.family.org/cforum/extras/a0032427.cfm
"Why will gay marriage set the table for polygamy? Because there is no place to stop once that Rubicon has been crossed. Historically, the definition of marriage has rested on a foundation of tradition, legal precedent, theology and the overwhelming support of the people. After the introduction of marriage between homosexuals, however, it will be supported by nothing more substantial than the opinion of a single judge or by a black-robed panel of justices. After they have reached their dubious decisions, the family will consist of little more than someone’s interpretation of “rights.” Given that unstable legal climate, it is certain that some self-possessed judge, somewhere, will soon rule that three men or three women can marry. Or five men and two women. Or four and four. Who will be able to deny them that right? The guarantee is implied, we will be told, by the Constitution. Those who disagree will continue to be seen as hate-mongers and bigots. "

Overall the article is fairly biased and aggressively based on assumption but i felt the part above had some pertinance.,

When you state that the article is biased, you've said a mouthful. Family.org is the official site of "Focus on the Family" (or, as I affectionately call it, "Focus on the Fascism"). There is no greater bigot when it comes to homophobia than FOTF. They also are the driving force behind the "ex-gay movement," which itself only boasts a supposed "30% success rate" and whom psychiatric organizations deem complete quackery.

Part of this "success rate" is a matter of semantics. FOTF's definition of "ex-gay" is pretty much down to convincing a homosexual to be completely celibate or convincing a bisexual to ignore their same-sex aspect of themselves, for the most part.

I hate all this "slippery slope" talk. If they are THAT afraid of polygamy or bestiality, then why don't they have a constitutional amendment to specifically ban only polygamy and bestiality? Because what they're really doing is making up a bunch of nonsense to support homophobia, which they believe to be in the Bible.

Melon
 
Justin24 said:
You may never convince people that homosexualty is fine and natural. But dont loose home on humanity, as a catholic/christian they are your brother or sister and you must love them no matter what.


I totally agree with you Justin24......

and I am not Catholic, I used to go to catholic school and church but I found I would be hypocritical if I continued in the catholic faith.
 
melon said:


Somehow, this is supposed to be better? Please.

And people wonder why I have such low opinions of Christianity today. I had 13 valuable years of Catholic education, and I appreciate every amount of in-depth religious education I received. But hell...after reading all this nonsense after a while, I really start wishing that the Bible was just as lost and forgotten as the Zoroastrian "Avesta."

It's hard for me to stomach a lot of evangelical Protestant theology after a while, mainly because most of its logic trail is completely foreign to me, and I often received education to the complete contrary. That enough should be proof that government should be secular, because there is not even consistency with what constitutes "Christian beliefs," let alone trying to reconcile non-Christian beliefs into America.

Since we're going to talk about sin, if you've ever masturbated or had oral sex with your spouse, if you've used birth control of any kind, you're going to rot in hell, according to the Catholic Church. After all, sex is only for making babies, right?

And to complicate things further for me, Catholicism's teachings against homosexuality are not Biblically based--those in the highest of echelons in the Vatican have even admitted at times that there is no Biblical basis for modern homosexuality--but, instead, their beliefs are based on medieval tradition in "natural law."

So for those of us who do not treat the Bible literally (as the Catholic Church teaches) and similarly question the validity of church tradition (as I and many others do), I guess we're plain out of luck after a while?

So fucking much for "religious freedom." Religion just makes me sick after a while.

Melon


Yes, please melon, maybe you should get the chip off your shoulder and love thy neighbor.....:heart:
I am not Catholic nor do I follow vatican placed rules and regulations, I do however have respect for what catholics believe in as do all other religions whether I agree with them or not.

If one of my children came home and said I am gay and I have a partner, I would love my child unconditionally as always and their partner too. Would I like what he is doing behind closed doors probable not, what I like what he is doing behind closed doors with anyone before marraige. I don't thinks so. I try very hard not to be hypercritical in everyday life so I can say I was a virgin until I got married and I hope my children will do the same.
 
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Irvine511 said:




well, then hopefully you support full marriage rights for homosexuals so they can get married and have god-approved "actual acts."

it seems silly to condemn people for sinning when society denies them they very tools that would enable them not to sin.


If you are having such a problem with this topic maybe you should get out there and do something about it. And maybe if you are having troubles coming to terms with yourself, maybe there is no sense in beating this dead horse even more. I stand on my beliefs and you on yours.
 
I cannot believe that no one has been outraged yet by my claim that there are certain queer elements about Jesus and his relationship with John. Kudos to you all.
 
There was never a "queer" moment with John and Jesus. John baptized jesus.
 
JCOSTER said:



If you are having such a problem with this topic maybe you should get out there and do something about it. And maybe if you are having troubles coming to terms with yourself, maybe there is no sense in beating this dead horse even more. I stand on my beliefs and you on yours.



wow, you don't come in here very often.

i do go out and do things about it, by voting, by volunteering, and by being out and comfortable and explaining to people exactly how their votes hurt gay people -- most people aren't aware that it is legal to fire someone for being gay in most states; most people aren't aware that long term gay couples have no inheritance rights; most people aren't aware that gay partners are sometimes denied hospital visitation rights on the basis that they aren't considered "family" in the eyes of state law.

don't stand there for a minute and cast judgements on me for coming to terms with myself -- i have, and it's been hell, and not least because of people like yourself who stand on a hill and sanctimoniously preach that "acts" are sinful but they love the sinner, which is a wonderful way to pat yourself on the back for being forgiving and loving while at the same time failing to engage on any level the depth to which these prejudices and ingrained heterosupremacy have been ingrained in you by both religion and society.

i don't have beliefs in any meaningful sense. i have thoughts, and i have convictions. believing is for people too lazy to think.
 
Justin24 said:
There was never a "queer" moment with John and Jesus. John baptized jesus.



two men in a river, partially clothed to perhaps naked, one casting water over the head of the other ... sounds hot.
 
Irvine511 said:




two men in a river, partially clothed to perhaps naked, one casting water over the head of the other ... sounds hot.

:eyebrow: :blahblah: That is not considered gay. Seeing a guy getting Rammed from behind like in Brokeback would be considered gay. (no I am not bashing people)

But having Anal sex is kind of gay anyways straight or gay.
 
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You shit out of your ass not to stick stuff in it. (Stick the prick in there is a good way to get Aids or other diseases.)
 
MrsSpringsteen said:
We really don't need to be discussing this Justin, what people do in their private lives is their business and also not appropriate for this forum

I agree sorry about that.
 
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