Homeland Security- Is Out of Control - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 09-20-2002, 01:23 AM   #1
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,501
Local Time: 05:37 PM
Homeland Security- Is Out of Control

Profiling charged on 'nightmare' flight
A doctor on Delta Flight 442 was detained by U.S. marshals.
By THOMAS GINSBERG
Philadelphia Inquirer

The incident on Delta Flight 442 was scary enough last month: U.S. marshals seized an unruly passenger, then one aimed a pistol at other passengers for a half hour and shouted at them to stay seated.

The event, however, didn't end there. Unknown to most passengers on the Atlanta-to-Philadelphia flight, the marshals upon landing also seized an Indian passenger from first class and silently whisked him away in handcuffs.

Far from being a terror suspect, the second detainee turned out to be a former U.S. Army major and military doctor from Lake Worth, Fla., where he has had a family practice for two decades. Both detainees later were released without charge, and the physician's angry account of his ordeal offers a glimpse at the dark side of America's war on terrorism.

Yesterday, suggesting that the line between security and civil-rights violations is blurring, the physician, Bob Rajcoomar, filed notice in U.S. District Court that he may sue the U.S. government for illegal detention and emotional distress. His wife had been left to wander the Philadelphia airport for three hours during his detention, never told of his whereabouts.

"This is blatant racial profiling," Rajcoomar, a naturalized citizen since 1985, said by telephone from Florida. "They think they can pick up anybody, willy-nilly... . It's not in keeping with traditions of the United States."

David Steigman, a spokesmen for the newly created U.S. Transportation Safety Administration, which oversees the air marshals, gave few details about the detentions or the marshals' actions and declined to discuss the potential lawsuit. Atlanta-based Delta did not comment on the legal action.

Rajcoomar, "to the best of our knowledge, had been observing too closely. When the aircraft landed, the airline declined to press charges" against either man, Steigman said.

Stefan Presser, legal director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Pennsylvania, which filed the lawsuit notice, called the detention a civil-rights violation that should "send a wake-up call to Americans before it's too late... . In our haste to protect ourselves, we are literally turning on each other."

The dramatic hours on Aug. 31 aboard Delta Flight 442 started when a passenger from Philadelphia - described as waiflike and disturbed - caused alarm when he began looking at other passengers' luggage.

Two U.S. air marshals rushed back from their first-class seats to investigate. The marshals were later identified by police as Shawn B. McCullers and Samuel Mumma, assigned to the regional Transportation Safety Administration office in Atlantic City, which declined to discuss the case.

"Air marshals issued a series of warnings to passengers to stay in their seats. The unruly gentleman didn't stay in his seat, so they took action to restrain him," Steigman said.

Rajcoomar, sitting in window seat 1-D, reading a book and sipping a beer, said he knew nothing until the marshals showed up and began pushing the unruly man into seat 1-C, adjacent to his.

Alarmed, Rajcoomar said he stood up and asked to be moved. A flight attendant told him to take one of the first-class seats vacated by the marshals.

"One [marshal] sat on the guy in the first seat; he was groaning, and the more he groaned, the more they twisted the handcuffs," Rajcoomar said.

Then, in coach class, a woman rose to switch seats with her child, who was sitting in an aisle seat, according to Rajcoomar's wife, Dorothy, who was sitting in coach class because the couple could not get seats together.

"That's when they started hollering," Dorothy Rajcoomar said of the marshals. One of them rushed to the divider between the first-class and coach sections and leveled his pistol at the coach-class passengers.

"He took control as if he was a terrorist himself," said Bob Rajcoomar, who was then sitting in a first-class aisle seat directly in front of the marshal. "He says, 'Nobody move, nobody look down the aisle, nobody take pictures or you will go to jail, nobody do anything.' He basically hijacked everybody."

One passenger, Philadelphia Common Pleas Court Judge James Lineberger, said marshals "were yelling at passengers to keep their heads and hands out of the aisle... . I couldn't believe they would do such a thing."

Bob Rajcoomar said he, like every other passenger, was watching the marshal but never spoke to him.

About 30 minutes later, the plane landed and Philadelphia police officers came aboard to help take away the unruly man. Thinking the incident was over, passengers began standing up, Rajcoomar said.

"Then out of nowhere, hell broke loose," Rajcoomar said. "One of these marshals came down to me and said, 'Head down, hands over your head!' They pushed my head down, told me to bend down... . I just couldn't believe it. I was speechless, in shock."

Unseen by his wife 30 rows back, Rajcoomar was whisked off the plane, taken to an airport police station, and locked in a cell he called so filthy "I wouldn't even put my dog in it."

During detention, Rajcoomar said, he was never asked anything except his name, address and Social Security number. He asked why he was being held.

"One of the marshals said something like, 'We didn't like the way you looked,' " Rajcoomar recalled. "They also said something like, 'We didn't like the way you looked at us.' "

Finally, after about three hours, Rajcoomar was released without explanation.

"It was like a nightmare," Rajcoomar said. "The marshals were completely out of control... . If they had pulled the trigger, we'd all be dead. I don't feel safe knowing they're there, not with this kind of behavior."
__________________

__________________
deep is offline  
Old 09-20-2002, 02:55 PM   #2
War Child
 
CannibalisticArtist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: West Coast babyeee
Posts: 511
Local Time: 05:37 PM
i hope he sues their pants off.
that's the beauty of it, they are free to racially-profile, and he is free to make money out of their stupidity. sounds like free market to me.
__________________

__________________
CannibalisticArtist is offline  
Old 09-21-2002, 08:57 PM   #3
Refugee
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,760
Local Time: 02:37 AM
I'm indian and I'm outraged!!!



that could have been my dad...or even me


I hope that sky marshall loses his job 1.)

2.) I hope that pretty soon....that airline is called rajcoomar airlines



3.) shit like this really pisses me off.
__________________
V Nura is offline  
Old 09-21-2002, 10:23 PM   #4
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Lilly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: back and to the left
Posts: 8,523
Local Time: 07:37 PM
i want my civil liberties back

Quote:
Originally posted by Arun V


2.) I hope that pretty soon....that airline is called rajcoomar airlines


that'd be nice arun, seriously!



i don't like racial profiling. i don't like what it's doing to our country. we spoke about it in my poli class and my prof asked "truthfully, how many of you are scared when you see middle easterners?"

so many of those kids raised their hands.

and so, since i was so angry, i stood up and asked how many middle easterners they've seen on their farms and told them that i came from a place with a lot of middle easterners and that my friend is part iranian and there's nothing to be scared of cos terrorists are just people and you can't characterize them or their respective culture.

yeah, then i left.
__________________
Lilly is offline  
Old 09-22-2002, 12:08 AM   #5
Kid A
 
The Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Holy Roman Empire
Posts: 5,271
Local Time: 08:37 PM
Lilly, you act as if "profiling" is something new, it's been going on forever

btw, what do you mean by "i stood up and asked how many middle easterners they've seen on their farms?"

they are all farmers? this is strange
__________________
The Wanderer is offline  
Old 09-22-2002, 02:26 AM   #6
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
ILuvLarryMullen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: in the sunshine
Posts: 6,904
Local Time: 05:37 PM
Wanderer, look at Lilly's location. She is in South Dakota. I've been there, it's a scary place She's asking them how many they've seen on their farms because S. Dakota is almost entirely white farmers. I would be surprised if there were more than 10 middle easterners in the entire state. Most of them probably have never met a middle easterner in their entire lives. Correct me if I'm wrong/misunderstanding you Lilly.
I'm not trying to offend South Dakotans, I have family from N. Dakota.....but those states freak me out.
__________________
ILuvLarryMullen is offline  
Old 09-22-2002, 02:40 AM   #7
Kid A
 
The Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Holy Roman Empire
Posts: 5,271
Local Time: 08:37 PM
ah, ok

makes more sense now
__________________
send lawyers, guns and money...
The Wanderer is offline  
Old 09-22-2002, 03:15 AM   #8
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Lilly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: back and to the left
Posts: 8,523
Local Time: 07:37 PM
thanks other shannon, you explained it completely.


sorry i didn't explain further wanderer.
__________________
Lilly is offline  
Old 09-22-2002, 09:42 AM   #9
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 08:37 PM
Not Profiling Poor Training

Here is another article for you all. I for one believe that this is more of a response to poor training. This is not the only article that I found to indicate this in response to this incident.


[ The Atlanta Journal-Constitution: 9/4/02 ]

Air marshals' response and training questioned after guns are drawn

The Associated Press

PHILADELPHIA -- An incident aboard Delta Flight 442 over the weekend has prompted critics of the federal air marshal program to argue that post-Sept. 11 changes in the way officers handle danger aboard jets could prove to actually decrease safety.

While federal authorities say a marshal was justified in drawing his handgun on Saturday's flight from Atlanta to Philadelphia, consumer advocates and safety experts questioned whether the action was taken too quickly.

The air marshal program was turned over from the Federal Aviation Administration to the newly created Transportation Security Administration in February.

Before the shift, there were fewer marshals and they were trained to avoid showing weapons and stay out of passenger disputes, said Joseph Gutheinz, a former FAA investigator Gutheinz, now a University of Phoenix criminal justice professor researching airline security, said he doesn't see the reason for the apparent change in policy.

"Under the old system, you just didn't pull out a weapon," he said.

There are too many dangers involved in bringing out weapons, including the danger that bullets could hit the plane or that the guns could be turned on the marshals by hijackers, Gutheinz said.

Two marshals on Saturday restrained a man who was going through other people's luggage and then trained a weapon on the cabin for a half-hour after passengers wouldn't stay seated, according to the Transportation Security Administration.

While one marshal huddled over the detainee, the other stood by the cockpit door with his gun trained on the cabin, passengers said.

Administration officials said the response was done by the book. Marshal training uses role-playing, exercises with teammates, short-range weapons instruction and communications lessons, spokeswoman Heather Rosenker said.

The training mandates that if communication fails, marshals can "do what they believe is the right thing to do to get control of the airplane," Rosenker said.

But the fact that the man wasn't charged showed the response was an overreaction and that the marshals pulled their guns too quickly, Gutheinz said.

Transportation Security Administration spokesman Robert Johnson said marshals are taught to issue warnings to passengers first. The two marshals on Flight 442 first warned the 183 people on board to sit down and keep their seat belts on, Johnson said.

When certain passengers didn't obey, the marshals followed a "hierarchy of warnings" and ultimately had to draw a gun, he said.

FAA spokesman Jim Peters said the agency no longer has control over the marshals and declined to discuss the actions of what he called a "gun-happy air marshal."

David Stempler, president of the Washington, D.C.-based Air Travelers Association, a passenger advocacy group, said marshals need better training on how to issue warnings to passengers during an emergency.

"It's very difficult for innocent people to be looking down the barrels of guns on an airplane," Stempler said. "They need to do a much better job of communicating to the passengers on the airplanes. Passengers are used to ignoring these things."
__________________
Dreadsox is offline  
Old 09-22-2002, 11:15 AM   #10
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 08:37 PM
Two Issues

There are two issues here. The way they treated the passengers on the plane and the way they treated Doctor Rajcoomar.


I have found many articles in reading about this flight where experts are quoted as saying that we are rushing people through training to get them on the planes to protect people. This is disturbing to me. Yes I want to be protected when I fly, but I want the people to be trained and qualified to do what they do. Even the passenger advocacy representative stated that there appeared to be a communication problem between the marshalls and the passengers.

I have found not a single reference out there telling me how long these two have been on the job.



As for the second instance involving Dr. Doctor Rajcoomar here are my thoughts.

I have stated before I am not against profiling. If this were racially motivated people other than Doctor Rajcoomar would have been detained, unless of course he was the only person of a different race on the flight.

However, in all of the reading I have done on Doctor Rajcoomar I am unhappy. First I am questioning the Philadelphia Paper on their quotes. I have found other articles where Doctor Rajcoomar quoted the Marshalls as saying "We didn't like the way you looked at us." This is a bit different from "We didn't like the way you look." Neither sounds good......Even I can see that!

In either case, until a detained persons background is checked, the Police do not have to give logical answers to the detainee.

The other interesting thing that I found was the reason for Doctor Rajcoomar's detention was according to David Steigman, a spokesmen for the U.S. Transportation Safety Administration, Dr. Rajcoomar "to the best of our knowledge, had been observing too closely."

Doctor Rajcoomar was seated next to the man when the disturbance started, and he managed to get his seat moved to get away from it only to find himself next to the guy again when they moved him in the handcuffs. I think I would be watching too. However...


Here is a plausible scenario:

#Disturbance in the back of the plane that distracts the agents whose main job is to protect the cockpit.
#A passenger gets his seat moved to 1st class closer to the "cockpit".
#Agents then move the baggage man to 1st class and take note of Doctor Rajcoomar observing them.
#People are asked to not take pictures for security reasons ie Intelligence Gathering for future high jacking attempts.
#People continue to get out of seats after requests to stay seated.
#Agents react with weapons drawn. (Some witnesses in other articles claim the agents acted profesionally and "did not" point weapons at people.)
#Agents detain two people, the man who had his seat moved closer to the cockpit and the individual causing the disturbance.
#Both individuals released and charged with nothing.
#Incident makes headlines becasue the guns were drawn. Press tells one sided story to promote agenda.


But what could the agents and police have been thinking?

What if this were a "dry run" kind of like the dry run actor James Woods witnessed in the weeks before 9/11.

If the police had listened to Woods' claims 9/11 may not have happened. However, if James Woods had been wrong and it made the news he would be raked accross the coals like the woman who reported the Med Students last week. He would have been called a racist ect......

Now we question if the Marshalls reacted correctly.

Doctor Rajcoomar managed to get moved closer to the cockpit during an incident that may have been a dry run to test the security of our planes. Doctor Rajcoomar was detained for 3 hours while his background was checked. I am glad it was not a dry run and all has checked out. The sad part is if his seat had been moved backwards, instead of forwards, I would stake my salary on the fact that he would not have been detained.

If they had not drawn their guns on the whole plane, this might not have even made the news. More training is necessary for me to feel safe riding in a plane. My fear is, that we will continue to tie the hands of the people who protect us. Read "Breakdown" by Bill Gertz if you are curious about what happened to our CIA, FBI and other intelligence agencies over the past twenty years.

Peace to all.
__________________
Dreadsox is offline  
Old 09-22-2002, 09:42 PM   #11
Refugee
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,760
Local Time: 02:37 AM
listen...he asked to be moved...they moved him closer



it's ridiculous to hold man for 3 hours with no charge when he's done nothing.


HE's a man, he has other things to do besides sit in an airport while ppl try to fuck his life up.


It's ridiculous....this is not what america is about.


just cos you have dark skin..doens' mean your a terrorist


profiling to get your bags searched is one thing...this is something else
__________________
V Nura is offline  
Old 09-22-2002, 10:23 PM   #12
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 08:37 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Arun V
listen...he asked to be moved...they moved him closer
And you can state as a fact that a terrorist would not ask to be moved forward while a distraction is occuring? As I said, it is unfortunate that he was moved towards the cockpit. Most likely the stewardess was following company policy with trying to appease a disrupted patron. She did her job, the marshalls did theirs, by being vigilant.


Quote:
Originally posted by Arun V
it's ridiculous to hold man for 3 hours with no charge when he's done nothing. [/B]
Actually, that is a pretty quick turn around. I had a friend searched (body cavity) recently when he was at an airport in Ohio. He was there a bit longer than that.

Quote:
Originally posted by Arun V
HE's a man, he has other things to do besides sit in an airport while ppl try to fuck his life up. [/B]
I am not exactly sure how to respond to this. Aarun I know this topic hits way close to home with you and I am sorry. Would you rather they let things slide and find out a week later that someone was testing the security of our flights again like pre 9/11? Again, if James Woods had been listened to, 9/11 may not have happened.

Quote:
Originally posted by Arun V
It's ridiculous....this is not what america is about.[/B]
If every non-white person on every flight was detained I would agree with you. It's not happpening this way.

Quote:
Originally posted by Arun V
just cos you have dark skin..doens' mean your a terrorist.[/B]
I agree with this. I would hope that they would have reacted this way to anyone who was moved forward. My biggest fear now are the Johnny Walkers of this country.

Quote:
Originally posted by Arun V
profiling to get your bags searched is one thing...this is something else [/B]
That's right. It's time we pointed the finger at the people who have declared war on our country and not the people who are doing their jobs. risking their lives protecting us.
__________________
Dreadsox is offline  
Old 09-22-2002, 11:02 PM   #13
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
U2Bama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Gulf Coast State of Mine
Posts: 3,405
Local Time: 07:37 PM

I agree that Dr. Rajcoomar was not treated appropriately and he should pursue his grievances accordingly.

I am relatively dark-skinned for a caucasian (or occidental or whatever we are called) and I have dark hair and usually don't fool with shaving while travelling on vacation.

I flew on several business trips on April and May of this year, and I was pulled aside for a personal search several times (scanned with the wand, shoes run through the conveyor, etc.), including an airport in Ohio where they even scanned the bottoms of my socks. I was clean-shaven on all of those trips.

Two weeks ago, wy wife and I went on vacation throughout the Southwestern U.S. and flew through 7 airports. I had the effects of a summer yard-work and swimming-pool and earlier beach-vacation tan and didn't shave over the course of a week. I was only pulled aside for a very brief "scan" only ONCE; while my blonde-haired and blue-eyed wife had a more extensive search. I also noticed elderly ladies and younger women being scanned more than anyone else.

I do know what to make of any of this.

~U2Alabama
__________________
U2Bama is offline  
Old 09-22-2002, 11:41 PM   #14
pax
ONE
love, blood, life
 
pax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Ewen's new American home
Posts: 11,412
Local Time: 09:37 PM
I've flown a couple of times since 9/11 (keep in mind I'm a petite, youthful-looking, blonde-haired blue-eyed female American) and it took me about 5 tries to get through a metal detector (I finally made it through with empty pockets, no coat, and no shoes), after which I was patted down pretty thoroughly, but that was about it. So, like Bama, I have no idea either.
__________________
and you hunger for the time
time to heal, desire, time


Join Amnesty.
pax is offline  
Old 09-23-2002, 12:32 AM   #15
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Tempe, Az USA
Posts: 12,856
Local Time: 06:37 PM
Ive got frisked at a few airports ..
Shoes removed a few times too at airports
The wand many times ect.

Let me say this-
I feel bad for the Dr.
The Sky Marshalls bungled this.
The Sky Marshalls were baffoons.

However this will happen occassionally, w the War On Terror.

And when we as Americans throw our arms up and want to sue everytime there is a misstep by our newly implemented security system the enemy applauds..they are winning.
Dont let the enemy win.

And again I feel bad for Dr. Rajcoomar
Ive been where he was at- falsely accused by over zealous police:
The Marshalls should b better trained and owe Dr Rajcoomar a sincere formal apology..

DB9
__________________

__________________
diamond is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:37 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com