Homegrown terrorists captured - Page 4 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 12-18-2007, 04:12 AM   #46
Blue Crack Addict
 
Moonlit_Angel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: In a dimension known as the Twilight Zone...do de doo doo, do de doo doo...
Posts: 19,271
Local Time: 01:02 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by indra
Eyewitness identifications are notoriously inaccurate and are responsible for the incarceration of many innocent people.
Exactly. Not to mention the occasional eyewitnesses that will sometimes claim so-and-so did it because they "looked" like the kind of person who would, they seemed a bit suspicious or something. Or the "eyewitnesses" who will flat out lie for whatever reason. And so on and so forth.

Everybody has the right to a fair trial and to be able to try and defend themselves. It would be a scary, scary world if we were to take that opportunity away.

Angela
__________________

__________________
Moonlit_Angel is offline  
Old 12-18-2007, 06:11 AM   #47
Vocal parasite
 
Axver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: 1853
Posts: 151,043
Local Time: 06:02 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by AchtungBono
You have every right to disagree with my posts and opinions,.....but you do not have the right to insult me, seeing as I've never insulted you - or anyone else on this board.
I find your views themselves to be insulting to human decency, morality, ethics, common sense, intelligence, and everything I hold dear. You don't need to explicitly insult anyone; your opinions are quite sufficiently disgusting already.
__________________

__________________
"Mediocrity is never so dangerous as when it is dressed up as sincerity." - Søren Kierkegaard

Ian McCulloch the U2 fan:
"Who buys U2 records anyway? It's just music for plumbers and bricklayers. Bono, what a slob. You'd think with all that climbing about he does, he'd look real fit and that. But he's real fat, y'know. Reminds me of a soddin' mountain goat."
"And as for Bono, he needs a colostomy bag for his mouth."

U2gigs: The most comprehensive U2 setlist database!
Gig pictures | Blog
Axver is online now  
Old 12-18-2007, 06:40 AM   #48
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 30,343
Local Time: 02:02 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by AchtungBono
I find it even sadder that you can't understand that I'm on your side......
Nope:

Quote:
Originally posted by AchtungBono
"Innocent until proven guilty" doesn't always work.
__________________
phillyfan26 is offline  
Old 12-18-2007, 07:45 AM   #49
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Canadiens1131's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 10,363
Local Time: 03:02 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by AchtungBono


I'm sorry I give that impression... because nothing could be further from the truth.

I do believe in the law and civil rights....for the INNOCENT.
I'm sure the thousands of innocent Japanese Americans herded into internment camps during World War II might have a bone to pick with you, or some of the people sitting in GITMO who have not been accused of a crime and are there only because of the word of a neighbour or coworker.

It's quite irritating to have the US, and other Western nations for that matter, chiding China on human rights, only to be ignoring International Law themselves.

__________________
Canadiens1131 is offline  
Old 12-18-2007, 08:01 AM   #50
Refugee
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Tel-Aviv, Israel
Posts: 1,300
Local Time: 07:02 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Axver


I find your views themselves to be insulting to human decency, morality, ethics, common sense, intelligence, and everything I hold dear. You don't need to explicitly insult anyone; your opinions are quite sufficiently disgusting already.
How can you possibly say that if all I want is to get criminals off the street and make our lives safer to live?

Don't you want that also? If you're so against my views then I'm afraid that it may be YOU who have issues here if you hold the rights of criminals ahead of your own.
__________________
AchtungBono is offline  
Old 12-18-2007, 08:05 AM   #51
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Canadiens1131's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 10,363
Local Time: 03:02 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by AchtungBono
Don't you want that also? If you're so against my views then I'm afraid that it may be YOU who have issues here if you hold the rights of criminals ahead of your own.
The last time I checked, we should be holding the rights of accused criminals equal to our own.

Anyway, we'll wait for Antiram to get in here with her keen legal mind to clear things up.
__________________
Canadiens1131 is offline  
Old 12-18-2007, 08:13 AM   #52
Refugee
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Tel-Aviv, Israel
Posts: 1,300
Local Time: 07:02 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


I'm sorry but you aren't on my side if you don't agree that people are innocent until proven guilty. There's just no other humane way to deal with crime.
I'm not talking about cases in which there could be a mistake in identity.

I'm talking about a crime taking place 10 feet from where I'm standing and me seeing the crime being committed and me WATCHING the guy shoot another person........I can't say it was a "suspect" or an "alleged" gunman - I SAW it happen!

That's the case of "innocent until proven guilty" being irrelevant because the crime took place right in front of me.....how could the perpetrator be innocent????

Now do you understand my point? I hope so......

And just to drive another point home, here's another example taken from the Israeli court yesterday - this is an actual case:

A suspect was arrested in a murder case and, on the advise of his lawyer, freely gave a DNA sample in order to prove his innocence in this case. The DNA sample was obtained after the police promised not to use the DNA sample as evidence in other cases (should they arise).
Well, during the testing, the DNA sample cleared the suspect of murder but, as it turns out, the sample clearly showed he was guilty in at least 3 unsolved rape cases. His DNA matched samples taken from the rape victims.
Naturally his lawyer thought that the DNA sample couldn't be used as evidence....but the judge surprised him: the judge said that the public interest dictates that this person not walk off scott-free for raping at least 3 women. So, in a judicial first, the judge INCLUDED the DNA evidence and so the suspect was cleared of murder and convicted of rape and sent to prison.


I would assume that in the United States the suspect would have walked.....and sent back in the streets to rape again.

Isn't it better that this rapist is now behind bars instead of threatening women?

Now THAT'S justice!!!
__________________
AchtungBono is offline  
Old 12-18-2007, 08:16 AM   #53
Refugee
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Tel-Aviv, Israel
Posts: 1,300
Local Time: 07:02 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Canadiens1160
The last time I checked, we should be holding the rights of accused criminals equal to our own.

Anyway, we'll wait for Antiram to get in here with her keen legal mind to clear things up.
lol....the way things are going I think I'M going to be needing a lawyer....heehee.

I LOVE THIS FORUM!!
__________________
AchtungBono is offline  
Old 12-18-2007, 09:03 AM   #54
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Canadiens1131's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 10,363
Local Time: 03:02 AM
__________________
Canadiens1131 is offline  
Old 12-18-2007, 12:05 PM   #55
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,697
Local Time: 01:02 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by AchtungBono


I'm not talking about cases in which there could be a mistake in identity.

I'm talking about a crime taking place 10 feet from where I'm standing and me seeing the crime being committed and me WATCHING the guy shoot another person........I can't say it was a "suspect" or an "alleged" gunman - I SAW it happen!

That's the case of "innocent until proven guilty" being irrelevant because the crime took place right in front of me.....how could the perpetrator be innocent????

Now do you understand my point? I hope so......
But how do I know you don't have poor vision? How do I know you aren't projecting your hatred on someone innocent?

I'm sorry, but you seeing it, doesn't change anything. It still has to run through the system. You haven't made your point.


Quote:
Originally posted by AchtungBono


And just to drive another point home, here's another example taken from the Israeli court yesterday - this is an actual case:

A suspect was arrested in a murder case and, on the advise of his lawyer, freely gave a DNA sample in order to prove his innocence in this case. The DNA sample was obtained after the police promised not to use the DNA sample as evidence in other cases (should they arise).
Well, during the testing, the DNA sample cleared the suspect of murder but, as it turns out, the sample clearly showed he was guilty in at least 3 unsolved rape cases. His DNA matched samples taken from the rape victims.
Naturally his lawyer thought that the DNA sample couldn't be used as evidence....but the judge surprised him: the judge said that the public interest dictates that this person not walk off scott-free for raping at least 3 women. So, in a judicial first, the judge INCLUDED the DNA evidence and so the suspect was cleared of murder and convicted of rape and sent to prison.


I would assume that in the United States the suspect would have walked.....and sent back in the streets to rape again.

Isn't it better that this rapist is now behind bars instead of threatening women?

Now THAT'S justice!!!
What does this have to do with anything? This has nothing to do with innocent until guilty. This is just a shitty deal the lawyers made.
__________________
BVS is offline  
Old 12-18-2007, 04:21 PM   #56
Resident Photo Buff
Forum Moderator
 
Diemen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Somewhere in middle America
Posts: 13,238
Local Time: 01:02 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by AchtungBono
That's the case of "innocent until proven guilty" being irrelevant because the crime took place right in front of me.....how could the perpetrator be innocent???
It is absolutely not made irrelevant by your scenario. Innocent until proven guilty means that it is on the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the suspect is guilty before we can take away any of their rights. That's just how democracy works. Even if in your heart you're 100% certain the person is guilty, you must afford them the same fair trial as everyone else. If the evidence is strong enough, the end result will be the same and they will receive their punishment. If you don't think that's right, then sorry, but no, you don't really believe in civil rights and equality, and frankly, I think that maybe democracy just isn't for you.
__________________
Diemen is offline  
Old 12-18-2007, 04:26 PM   #57
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 30,343
Local Time: 02:02 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by AchtungBono
I'm not talking about cases in which there could be a mistake in identity.

I'm talking about a crime taking place 10 feet from where I'm standing and me seeing the crime being committed and me WATCHING the guy shoot another person........I can't say it was a "suspect" or an "alleged" gunman - I SAW it happen!

That's the case of "innocent until proven guilty" being irrelevant because the crime took place right in front of me.....how could the perpetrator be innocent????
Are you kidding me?

You saw it happen. I didn't. The judge didn't. The jury didn't. Just you.

You could be wrong. In the heat of the moment, you might have mistaken him. He might look like someone else. You might have lied, for all we know. We have no idea. We'll never no for certain.




In the United States, guilt is found BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT.

Not 100% guilty.

Not guilty with certainty.

No.

Wrong.

Get that out of your head already.
__________________
phillyfan26 is offline  
Old 12-18-2007, 08:45 PM   #58
Vocal parasite
 
Axver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: 1853
Posts: 151,043
Local Time: 06:02 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by AchtungBono
How can you possibly say that if all I want is to get criminals off the street and make our lives safer to live?
You don't want that though. You keep saying you do, but you really just want to deprive people of rights and not allow due process. Ultimately, you do not respect the legal system.
__________________
"Mediocrity is never so dangerous as when it is dressed up as sincerity." - Søren Kierkegaard

Ian McCulloch the U2 fan:
"Who buys U2 records anyway? It's just music for plumbers and bricklayers. Bono, what a slob. You'd think with all that climbing about he does, he'd look real fit and that. But he's real fat, y'know. Reminds me of a soddin' mountain goat."
"And as for Bono, he needs a colostomy bag for his mouth."

U2gigs: The most comprehensive U2 setlist database!
Gig pictures | Blog
Axver is online now  
Old 12-18-2007, 09:51 PM   #59
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
sue4u2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: hatching some plot, scheming some scheme
Posts: 6,628
Local Time: 02:02 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by AchtungBono

That's the case of "innocent until proven guilty" being irrelevant because the crime took place right in front of me.....how could the perpetrator be innocent????
reverse the senario and you are the one being accused of the shooting. You are immediately arrested and thrown on death row, because the person standing 10 feet away said you did it.

What you and no one else knows, because there was no trial,
is that the eye witness has a history of violent delusions and really didn't see it - he imagined it.
But non the less your life is over you are guilty.
__________________
sue4u2 is offline  
Old 12-19-2007, 02:57 AM   #60
Refugee
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Tel-Aviv, Israel
Posts: 1,300
Local Time: 07:02 AM
I'm sorry that this is an online debate and not a real one because obviously I'm not getting my point across and none of you understand what I'm trying to say.

The internet is limited in the way I can express myself. There's only so much emotion I can put in these posts and there's nothing more I can do to convince you that I'm not a bad person and that I really DO believe in citizens rights.

I never run away from an argument but I can beat my head against the wall only so many times........so I'm dropping out of this discussion.

Have a good day.
__________________

__________________
AchtungBono is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:02 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com