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Old 12-17-2007, 04:51 AM   #31
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Originally posted by Diemen
I've come to understand that AchtungBono doesn't hold the rule of law, civil rights, or, you know, the core principles a country was founded on, in high regard.
I'm sorry I give that impression... because nothing could be further from the truth.

I do believe in the law and civil rights....for the INNOCENT. I don't believe in granting any rights to criminals - this doesn't contradict anything or show that I don't believe in law....quite the opposite - it is precisely BECAUSE I believe in the law and people's rights that I am outraged when I see criminals getting away with crimes because of loopholes in the law and/or hide behind constitutional rights.
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Old 12-17-2007, 04:57 AM   #32
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Originally posted by phillyfan26


Are you ... are you serious?

Read these words: Innocent until proven guilty.

Your argument there literally is: the ends justify the means. Problem: That's not how the country works. Why? Because (drum roll, please) ... OFTEN TIMES THE ARRESTS ARE WRONG.

I can't believe that you need to be told this.
"Innocent until proven guilty" doesn't always work. What happens in a case where a robber is in a bank, holding a hostage, the police are surrounding him...there are dozens of witnesses, he comes out and shoots the hostage in broad daylight and in front of everyone.....and yet he's referred to as a SUSPECT and ALLEGED gunman......what???? Do you really need a trial to prove he's guilty??

Besides, I always understood that you can't charge anyone with a crime, much less put them on trial, unless there is solid evidence against them.
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Old 12-17-2007, 05:16 AM   #33
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Originally posted by AchtungBono


"Innocent until proven guilty" doesn't always work.
Pathetic.
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Old 12-17-2007, 06:14 AM   #34
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Originally posted by U2DMfan


Pathetic.
Why pathetic? I just gave a perfectly good example in the post above.....

Why was that pathetic?
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Old 12-17-2007, 06:34 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by AchtungBono
"Innocent until proven guilty" doesn't always work. What happens in a case where a robber is in a bank, holding a hostage, the police are surrounding him...there are dozens of witnesses, he comes out and shoots the hostage in broad daylight and in front of everyone.....and yet he's referred to as a SUSPECT and ALLEGED gunman......what???? Do you really need a trial to prove he's guilty??

Besides, I always understood that you can't charge anyone with a crime, much less put them on trial, unless there is solid evidence against them.
1) The scenario you listed with "dozens of witnesses" is EXTREMELY rare.

2) Yes, you do need a trial.

3) For the last part ... not always. Sometimes there's corruption.
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Old 12-17-2007, 06:35 AM   #36
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Originally posted by AchtungBono
I do believe in the law and civil rights....for the INNOCENT. I don't believe in granting any rights to criminals - this doesn't contradict anything or show that I don't believe in law....quite the opposite - it is precisely BECAUSE I believe in the law and people's rights that I am outraged when I see criminals getting away with crimes because of loopholes in the law and/or hide behind constitutional rights.
The problem is that you're trying to take away civil rights from people who haven't been found guilty.
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Old 12-17-2007, 06:49 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by AchtungBono
Besides, I always understood that you can't charge anyone with a crime, much less put them on trial, unless there is solid evidence against them.
And here is where your argument completely falls apart, because you are completely wrong. There have been lots and lots (and lots) of people who have been wrongly accused and convicted of crimes, and who have had to serve lengthy jail/prison terms, only to be freed later because further investigation uncovered evidence before their innocence was proven. What would you say to a man who just spent 17 years in prison for a crime he didn't commit? Oops, sorry you had to spend the last 17 years in a cement box away from your family and children, but uh... we thought you were guilty

Do a google search for "wrongly convicted" and read up a little bit before you say such incredibly naive (and dangerous) things.
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Old 12-17-2007, 07:51 AM   #38
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Originally posted by Diemen
Do a google search for "wrongly convicted" and read up a little bit before you say such incredibly naive (and dangerous) things.
Don't bother AchtungBono with the facts. I think AB's allergic to them.
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Old 12-17-2007, 08:18 AM   #39
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Originally posted by Axver


Don't bother AchtungBono with the facts. I think AB's allergic to them.
Axver, there's really no need for sarcasm.....my intentions are honorable and I mean no harm.
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Old 12-17-2007, 08:29 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by AchtungBono


"Innocent until proven guilty" doesn't always work.
It's only Monday and I think we may have found the worst post of the week already.

I find it sad that you hate these principals so much.
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Old 12-17-2007, 10:03 PM   #41
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Originally posted by AchtungBono
Axver, there's really no need for sarcasm.....my intentions are honorable and I mean no harm.
Your views are so ridiculous and repulsive that I believe the only suitable response is sarcastic mockery. In any case, I still think you're a troll.
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Old 12-18-2007, 02:14 AM   #42
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


It's only Monday and I think we may have found the worst post of the week already.

I find it sad that you hate these principals so much.
I find it even sadder that you can't understand that I'm on your side......
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Old 12-18-2007, 02:15 AM   #43
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Originally posted by Axver


Your views are so ridiculous and repulsive that I believe the only suitable response is sarcastic mockery. In any case, I still think you're a troll.
You have every right to disagree with my posts and opinions,.....but you do not have the right to insult me, seeing as I've never insulted you - or anyone else on this board.
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Old 12-18-2007, 02:21 AM   #44
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Originally posted by AchtungBono


I find it even sadder that you can't understand that I'm on your side......
I'm sorry but you aren't on my side if you don't agree that people are innocent until proven guilty. There's just no other humane way to deal with crime.
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Old 12-18-2007, 02:32 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by AchtungBono
"Innocent until proven guilty" doesn't always work. What happens in a case where a robber is in a bank, holding a hostage, the police are surrounding him...there are dozens of witnesses, he comes out and shoots the hostage in broad daylight and in front of everyone.....and yet he's referred to as a SUSPECT and ALLEGED gunman......what???? Do you really need a trial to prove he's guilty??
Yes, we do need a trial, because if you start saying "well of course he's guilty, there are eyewitnesses" and just throw people in jail (or execute them -- which according to what I've read of your posts you would want) without having to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt you run a much increased risk of jailing or killing an innocent person. Eyewitness identifications are notoriously inaccurate and are responsible for the incarceration of many innocent people. If the person in your scenario was apprehended immediately on the scene it shouldn't be too tough of a case to prosecute. But it still needs to go through the process.

Criminal justice will never get it right every time. Never. I believe that it is better to allow a guilty person go free than to imprison an innocent one -- even if that guilty person will commit more crimes. I know that would be cold comfort to and future victims of that person, but life is full of risks. Taking away every risk also takes away every freedom. I'll take risks to have freedom.
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