Holy Kanye! Anybody else see this?

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Irvine511 said:




my goodness!

you live next door to a black person! and you're not afraid?

how progressive!

...

my mother was a teacher, and she has taught in both the black inner city (Bedford-Stuyvasant) and in white rural Vermont (outside of Waterbury), and she has said that, by far, the black kids were better off than the poor white kids. their parents were, on the whole, better, more educated, had more opportunity, and there were more kids who were able to get out of inner-city Brooklyn than out of rural Vermont.

...

we have a problem here. and we need to acknowledge it, not pat ourselves on the back for feeling progressive.

I think you missed the point, entirely.

You don't know my situation; I don't know yours. I could "assume" that you're some Beltway champagne socialist who's spent his entire life on the East Coast and therefore thinks he knows what's best for everyone else, but I've never walked in your shoes and seen with my eyes everything you've seen with yours.

I'm not "progressive" because of the fact that I have African-American neighbors whom I do not fear (it's actually quite inappropriate, as a matter of my opinion, that you would make such a sarcastic comment). And my progressiveness was not the point of me telling you about the demographics of the neighborhood. My point is that poor/rich, even here in the South, is not always a black & white issue. If you want to see it strictly that way, then please do. I will not see it that way because it is not what I see and experience every day of my life, and for me to start portraying it that way just to go along with your social commentary, would be lies and deception on my part.

Again, you may not see it from where you stand; I see it from where I stand.

And yes, there is a problem that we need to not only acknowledge it but do something about it, whether we do something about it occurring in 76% African American Clowndes County, Alabama with unemployment levels as high as 27% in recent history, or predominantly white lowed and middle Appalachia . People in both places live without plumbing. I agree with you that we need to acknowledge it.

~U2Alabama
 
I just found Kanye's people...

They were on the ABC news....

And they are espousing the opinion that the Governement blew up the levees so that the poor neighborhoods would get flooded saving the rich ones....

Kanye...your people hear you!!!!
 
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I think I'm just missing something, but I have to ask ...

When you say "Kanye's people," you don't actually mean ... Kanye's people, do you? You just mean there were people throwing out conspiracy theories, right?

Kanye's Bush comment? Not a conspiracy theory. Kanye's comments about AIDS? Conspiracy theory, sho nuff.
 
See, now your blank little smiley confuses me. Are you agreeing with me, and you used that smiley because you think the conspiracy theory is wacko, or are you being sarcastic?
 
corianderstem said:
See, now your blank little smiley confuses me. Are you agreeing with me, and you used that smiley because you think the conspiracy theory is wacko, or are you being sarcastic?

I think Kanye....and the conspiracy folk are in the same boat....
 
U2Bama said:


I think you missed the point, entirely.

You don't know my situation; I don't know yours. I could "assume" that you're some Beltway champagne socialist who's spent his entire life on the East Coast and therefore thinks he knows what's best for everyone else, but I've never walked in your shoes and seen with my eyes everything you've seen with yours.

I'm not "progressive" because of the fact that I have African-American neighbors whom I do not fear (it's actually quite inappropriate, as a matter of my opinion, that you would make such a sarcastic comment). And my progressiveness was not the point of me telling you about the demographics of the neighborhood. My point is that poor/rich, even here in the South, is not always a black & white issue. If you want to see it strictly that way, then please do. I will not see it that way because it is not what I see and experience every day of my life, and for me to start portraying it that way just to go along with your social commentary, would be lies and deception on my part.

Again, you may not see it from where you stand; I see it from where I stand.

And yes, there is a problem that we need to not only acknowledge it but do something about it, whether we do something about it occurring in 76% African American Clowndes County, Alabama with unemployment levels as high as 27% in recent history, or predominantly white lowed and middle Appalachia . People in both places live without plumbing. I agree with you that we need to acknowledge it.

~U2Alabama




i agree that my sarcasm was a bit inappropriate. for that i apologize.

however, it comes from the fact that i am sick to death of people giving anecdotal pieces of evidence, and from that extrapolating that social conditions such as they understand them despite evidence to the contrary. VertigoGal is absolutely right that there are more poor white people than poor black people, but we are talking about percentages of the population and how *likely* it is that, if you are born black, you are much more likely to be born into poverty.

this tied into your SUV post. the fact that your SUV allowed you drive toys to the hospital (or whatever it was) is utterly incidental to the aggregate harm that SUVs do to this country and to the world. i'm very happy those kids got those toys. i am not happy that people drive cars that get 12mpg that crowd my roads and increase our dependence on foreign oil.

in both situations, and this is the source of my sarcasm, is that they sound like easy outs, easy ways to absolve yourself of responsibility (as an SUV owner, that's a choice; being white isn't a choice). you're right: i don't know a thing about you beyond what you post, but you shouldn't then turn my posts around as to some sort of commentary on your life. they are commentary on what you choose to post about your life.

i've also said, several times, that it isn't an easy black/white issue, at least on an individual level. however, when you look in the aggregate, and the images from New Orleans bring this point home in a very visceral way, the majority of the inner city poor, especially in the south (certainly in DC) are African-American. i don't care if all your neighbors are wealthy and black. that doesn't change the predicament of people who drowned because they were poor and the fact that the federal government was way, way, way too slow in response. if you are an African-American, rich or poor, and you see black faces on TV begging for help at the Convention Center and you hear Michael "heckuva job" Brown saying that they were unaware of the situation at the Convention Center, just how would you feel?

put yourself in an African-American's shoes, and take into account all of American History, from slavery through reconstruction through 40 acres and a muel through lynchings and fabrications of rape of white women and legalized ghettoization right through crack and AIDS. how could you NOT think that the government doesn't give a shit about you? whether fair or not, justified or not, the perception is there and it has a lot of history behind it, no matter how many black people live in wealthy neighborhoods.
 
^It's true that the majority of inner city poor are black. Poor whites generally live in small towns, Appalachia, etc like U2Bama said. In the case of NO, obviously the overwhelming majority of the poor who were left were blacks, because it was the inner city we're talking about.

I agree with you that the relevant thing is generally percentages of poverty within each race, but my main point was that it's not fair to say being poor and being black in the south are the same thing, just looking at the sheer numbers.
 
Yeah, I think there's a lot of factors in why things have been the way they are this past week, why some people weren't helped as quickly as others. While I do agree that sometimes people are too quick to play the race card in certain issues, at the same time, I could see where it could've been a factor here, because, sadly, there are still racial problems in some areas of this country, and it wouldn't surprise me if some had surfaced here.

But like I said earlier, we should be helping all people from all walks of life through this tragedy. I don't care whether they're white, black, young, old, poor, rich, whatever, they all deserve our attention and help. I think that, at least, everyone here can agree on.

Also...

corianderstem said:
I'm with you, Hello Angel.

A lot of people are saying it wasn't the right time to say what he said. When is the right time? Maybe this IS the right time to start expressing frustration. Maybe people will start listening to the sheer anger and outrage so many are feeling right now. Maybe more people should start saying what they feel, appropriateness, timing or political correctness be damned.

(To be fair, I only agree with Kanye to a point - I think Bush doesn't care about the poor, not just African Americans.)

And if anyone was turned off enough by his statements to put their checkbook away and NOT donate to the Red Cross, then I have two strong words for them. Anyone with half a brain knows the Red Cross has nothing to do with Kanye West, and the human need always rises above political disagreement.

Excellent post :up:.

Angela
 
Irvine511 said:
i agree that my sarcasm was a bit inappropriate. for that i apologize.

however, it comes from the fact that i am sick to death of people giving anecdotal pieces of evidence, and from that extrapolating that social conditions such as they understand them despite evidence to the contrary.

Thanks.

But I guess my point is that my "evidence" is simply dismissed as "anecdotal pieces" of such. Perhaps you don't consider it relevant or worthy of consideration in the bigger picture, or perhaps you simply consider it the exception to the rule. I cannot convince you other wise. But it does disturb me when people choose to ignore such "evidence" because they don't want to acknowledge such accounts of progress (there's that word again) in the status quo (and I'm not talking about the Katrina crisis/aftermath). Personally, I value the diversity of my community and I think it's a cussess story.

~U2Alabama
 
i am happy he said it. people should be free to speak their mind. why do you have to be "nice" when you're on TV? keep it real.
 
You know what find the funniest about this whole thing is that it was supposedly the Democratic Governor of Louisiana who gave the order to shoot and kill the looters:

"Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco warned rioters and looters in New Orleans on Thursday that National Guard troops are under her orders to "shoot and kill" to end the rampant violence in the city in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. Announcing the arrival of 300 Arkansas National Guard troops in New Orleans fresh from service in Iraq, Blanco said, "these troops are battle-tested. They have M-16s and are locked and loaded." "These troops know how to shoot and kill and I expect they will," she said."
 
U2Bama said:


Thanks.

But I guess my point is that my "evidence" is simply dismissed as "anecdotal pieces" of such. Perhaps you don't consider it relevant or worthy of consideration in the bigger picture, or perhaps you simply consider it the exception to the rule. I cannot convince you other wise. But it does disturb me when people choose to ignore such "evidence" because they don't want to acknowledge such accounts of progress (there's that word again) in the status quo (and I'm not talking about the Katrina crisis/aftermath). Personally, I value the diversity of my community and I think it's a cussess story.

~U2Alabama



and this might be where we simply differ.

i find that these anecdotal pieces of evidence often function as excuses rather than examples of success. when you're dealing with politics, by its very nature, it forces you into making generalizations and looking at things in aggregate. politics forces you to sacrafice what makes you an individual and asks you to see how you align yourself with a particular social class, or race, or group, or whatever is being discussed at the time. one example, which comes easily for me, is that i can name you a million-and-one ways in which i feel distanced from what might be labled as "gay culture." however, this doesn't matter in the eyes of the body politic, because by virtue of being gay -- no matter how ill-fitting the lable -- there are certain rights that i am denied and cetain social stigmas that i will always have to put up with.

the same thing with, i think, being part of any minority culture. Kanye West is very talented, very wealthy, very arrogant, and the son of a college professor. in many ways, he's more "white" than i am -- however, because his skin is black, there are certain political and social realities that he is always going to have to deal with and he will always feel a closer connection to the poor black folk who died in New Orleans than you or i ever will. just like i will feel the executions of gay teenagers in Iran (have been several over the month of August) probably more profoundly than a straight person will. why? because it's simply easier for me to put myself in their shoes, through virtue of the connection that exists between people who are treated as somewhat different, in the same way, by politics and society.

i do think these pieces of anecdotal information might help to underscore a point, or provide evidence that complicates a situation. life is exceedingly complex, and we need personal stories to complicate the grand narratives that politics produces. however, a single story does not a counter-narrative make. that's really my point.

i also think it ties into something deeper that i find frustrating in American society. while our individualism is in many ways our greatest strength, and having lived abroad and visited over 30 different countries including lengthy homestays with "natives" (as it were ... in France, the UK, Germany, and Slovenia), i do think that we are a much more self-empowered group of people. it's what makes me want to live here rather than abroad, because i feel more in charge of the direction of my life. however, the downside of this is that i think the individualism gives us an out when it comes to collective responsibility, and this is where i think European nations (if i might be so sweeping) do a great job of putting the needs of the community -- especially on a micro level, as in environmentally responsible purchases, for example -- ahead of their own individualist whims. and the justification-by-anecdote plays into this.

so that's a long-winded explanation, but i felt as if i should give you some background so you know where my comments (and the inappropriate sarcasm) came from.
 
nbcrusader said:
Anecdotal evidence has fueled the criticism of the relief efforts. Why would anecdotal evidence of success be dismissed?



success stories have been reported; most people are in agreement that it's been going well since Friday, and Houston and the Astrodome are getting particularly good reviews, as have local churches.

i'm not sure what your point is.

if you want to compare emergency relief efforts to the continuing problems that perpetuate African-American poverty in the south over generations and their relationship to what has been generally very conservative governments since the 1960s, then you're comparing apples to oranges.
 
I think *alot* of people are really freaked out by the news. Now the devastation is even on the cover of People magazine, to hell with celebrities for this week.
 
Now what is happening in Jeb Bush's Florida?

Motel Pays $40,000 And Shuts Down To Settle Discrimination Case

POSTED: 2:35 pm EDT September 6, 2005

TALLAHASSEE, Fla. -- A Perry motel owner will pay victims $40,000 and give up the lodging business in a settlement over charges he gave black customers inferior rooms and kept them from using the pool, Attorney General Charlie Crist announced Tuesday.


"It's hard to imagine that in this day and age this kind of thing could still occur, but regrettably it does," Crist said. "People should be treated appropriately and there should never be discrimination. And if you operate in that fashion, you will not operate in Florida."


Patrick Sneed was a guest at the motel for a family reunion when Patel told his family he couldn't use the pool. His sons were in it when Patel dumped chemicals in to force them out.

"I had to look my sons in the eye and say 'I can accept this kind of behavior or I can take some steps to address it,"' said Sneed.

Sneed, though, didn't think much would come of matter when he wrote a letter to Crist's office, saying that sometimes it's easy to lose faith in the system after facing discrimination.


Crist said, "I'm pleased that maybe his faith has been restored. It's important to take these things seriously because they affect real people in a real way."

Calls were not answered at the Southern Inn, which has shut down. Patel's lawyer didn't immediately return calls for comment.

The suit was the first filed under a state civil rights act passed by the Legislature two years ago. The new law allows the Attorney General's Office to file civil charges for patterns of discrimination.

Perry is the same town that faced protests in 2001 because a black bar customer was told he could only be served in a back room.
 
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deep said:
Now what is happening in Jeb Bush's Florida?


As much as I hate to stick up for a Bush, he really doesn't have anything to do with this story. Crist is a Republican that works for Bush, and it sounds like they did the right thing.


Completely off-topic, but I almost got hit by a Crist campaign car when he was running for state senator or something like that many years ago. Whenever I see his name, I always think of that :).
 
deep, could you please check out this thread about posting long newspaper articles or editorials. Thanks. :up:

And y'know, if your posts could be a little more than tangentially related to the thread, that'd be nice too. :wink:
 
kellyahern said:


As much as I hate to stick up for a Bush, he really doesn't have anything to do with this story. Crist is a Republican that works for Bush, and it sounds like they did the right thing.


Completely off-topic, but I almost got hit by a Crist campaign car when he was running for state senator or something like that many years ago. Whenever I see his name, I always think of that :).


fair enough


living in CA
it has been a long time since anything like this has happened here

i know attitudes about race are different in the south

and I have not spent any serious amout of time there.

Jeb has had his problems with African Americans

But Kanye remarks were directed at the President.

I guess I threw this in here because I did not want to start a new thread
and it is not a good fit, sorry
 
Irvine511 said:


so that's a long-winded explanation, but i felt as if i should give you some background so you know where my comments (and the inappropriate sarcasm) came from.

Understood, and not long-winded at all. The complexity kind of ties into that macro and micro concept that melon mentioned in another thread, and you mentioned the micro view here as well.

But I can somewhat relate to your outrage at the murder of homosexuals in Iran, as I've been equally outraged by the stories of people in some parts of Iran who have converted from Islam to Christianity and meet the same fate. And again, I recall a post by Melon, perhaps it was in the Goal Is Soul Forum, where he and another poster were commenting that it would be better if people could recognize what we have in common, rather than our differences. Oh, in an ideal world...some day.

~U2Alabama
 
U2Bama said:


Understood, and not long-winded at all. The complexity kind of ties into that macro and micro concept that melon mentioned in another thread, and you mentioned the micro view here as well.

But I can somewhat relate to your outrage at the murder of homosexuals in Iran, as I've been equally outraged by the stories of people in some parts of Iran who have converted from Islam to Christianity and meet the same fate. And again, I recall a post by Melon, perhaps it was in the Goal Is Soul Forum, where he and another poster were commenting that it would be better if people could recognize what we have in common, rather than our differences. Oh, in an ideal world...some day.

~U2Alabama



:up:
 
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