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Old 09-05-2005, 10:48 AM   #151
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




my goodness!

you live next door to a black person! and you're not afraid?

how progressive!

...

my mother was a teacher, and she has taught in both the black inner city (Bedford-Stuyvasant) and in white rural Vermont (outside of Waterbury), and she has said that, by far, the black kids were better off than the poor white kids. their parents were, on the whole, better, more educated, had more opportunity, and there were more kids who were able to get out of inner-city Brooklyn than out of rural Vermont.

...

we have a problem here. and we need to acknowledge it, not pat ourselves on the back for feeling progressive.
I think you missed the point, entirely.

You don't know my situation; I don't know yours. I could "assume" that you're some Beltway champagne socialist who's spent his entire life on the East Coast and therefore thinks he knows what's best for everyone else, but I've never walked in your shoes and seen with my eyes everything you've seen with yours.

I'm not "progressive" because of the fact that I have African-American neighbors whom I do not fear (it's actually quite inappropriate, as a matter of my opinion, that you would make such a sarcastic comment). And my progressiveness was not the point of me telling you about the demographics of the neighborhood. My point is that poor/rich, even here in the South, is not always a black & white issue. If you want to see it strictly that way, then please do. I will not see it that way because it is not what I see and experience every day of my life, and for me to start portraying it that way just to go along with your social commentary, would be lies and deception on my part.

Again, you may not see it from where you stand; I see it from where I stand.

And yes, there is a problem that we need to not only acknowledge it but do something about it, whether we do something about it occurring in 76% African American Clowndes County, Alabama with unemployment levels as high as 27% in recent history, or predominantly white lowed and middle Appalachia . People in both places live without plumbing. I agree with you that we need to acknowledge it.

~U2Alabama
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Old 09-05-2005, 03:24 PM   #152
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You progressive you
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Old 09-05-2005, 03:57 PM   #153
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I just found Kanye's people...

They were on the ABC news....

And they are espousing the opinion that the Governement blew up the levees so that the poor neighborhoods would get flooded saving the rich ones....

Kanye...your people hear you!!!!
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Old 09-05-2005, 04:31 PM   #154
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Old 09-05-2005, 04:36 PM   #155
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I think I'm just missing something, but I have to ask ...

When you say "Kanye's people," you don't actually mean ... Kanye's people, do you? You just mean there were people throwing out conspiracy theories, right?

Kanye's Bush comment? Not a conspiracy theory. Kanye's comments about AIDS? Conspiracy theory, sho nuff.
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Old 09-05-2005, 04:44 PM   #156
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Originally posted by corianderstem


Kanye's Bush comment? Not a conspiracy theory. Kanye's comments about AIDS? Conspiracy theory, sho nuff.
Right
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Old 09-05-2005, 04:45 PM   #157
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See, now your blank little smiley confuses me. Are you agreeing with me, and you used that smiley because you think the conspiracy theory is wacko, or are you being sarcastic?
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Old 09-05-2005, 04:46 PM   #158
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Quote:
Originally posted by corianderstem
See, now your blank little smiley confuses me. Are you agreeing with me, and you used that smiley because you think the conspiracy theory is wacko, or are you being sarcastic?
I think Kanye....and the conspiracy folk are in the same boat....
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Old 09-05-2005, 04:47 PM   #159
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Okey-doke.
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Old 09-05-2005, 06:56 PM   #160
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Bama


I think you missed the point, entirely.

You don't know my situation; I don't know yours. I could "assume" that you're some Beltway champagne socialist who's spent his entire life on the East Coast and therefore thinks he knows what's best for everyone else, but I've never walked in your shoes and seen with my eyes everything you've seen with yours.

I'm not "progressive" because of the fact that I have African-American neighbors whom I do not fear (it's actually quite inappropriate, as a matter of my opinion, that you would make such a sarcastic comment). And my progressiveness was not the point of me telling you about the demographics of the neighborhood. My point is that poor/rich, even here in the South, is not always a black & white issue. If you want to see it strictly that way, then please do. I will not see it that way because it is not what I see and experience every day of my life, and for me to start portraying it that way just to go along with your social commentary, would be lies and deception on my part.

Again, you may not see it from where you stand; I see it from where I stand.

And yes, there is a problem that we need to not only acknowledge it but do something about it, whether we do something about it occurring in 76% African American Clowndes County, Alabama with unemployment levels as high as 27% in recent history, or predominantly white lowed and middle Appalachia . People in both places live without plumbing. I agree with you that we need to acknowledge it.

~U2Alabama



i agree that my sarcasm was a bit inappropriate. for that i apologize.

however, it comes from the fact that i am sick to death of people giving anecdotal pieces of evidence, and from that extrapolating that social conditions such as they understand them despite evidence to the contrary. VertigoGal is absolutely right that there are more poor white people than poor black people, but we are talking about percentages of the population and how *likely* it is that, if you are born black, you are much more likely to be born into poverty.

this tied into your SUV post. the fact that your SUV allowed you drive toys to the hospital (or whatever it was) is utterly incidental to the aggregate harm that SUVs do to this country and to the world. i'm very happy those kids got those toys. i am not happy that people drive cars that get 12mpg that crowd my roads and increase our dependence on foreign oil.

in both situations, and this is the source of my sarcasm, is that they sound like easy outs, easy ways to absolve yourself of responsibility (as an SUV owner, that's a choice; being white isn't a choice). you're right: i don't know a thing about you beyond what you post, but you shouldn't then turn my posts around as to some sort of commentary on your life. they are commentary on what you choose to post about your life.

i've also said, several times, that it isn't an easy black/white issue, at least on an individual level. however, when you look in the aggregate, and the images from New Orleans bring this point home in a very visceral way, the majority of the inner city poor, especially in the south (certainly in DC) are African-American. i don't care if all your neighbors are wealthy and black. that doesn't change the predicament of people who drowned because they were poor and the fact that the federal government was way, way, way too slow in response. if you are an African-American, rich or poor, and you see black faces on TV begging for help at the Convention Center and you hear Michael "heckuva job" Brown saying that they were unaware of the situation at the Convention Center, just how would you feel?

put yourself in an African-American's shoes, and take into account all of American History, from slavery through reconstruction through 40 acres and a muel through lynchings and fabrications of rape of white women and legalized ghettoization right through crack and AIDS. how could you NOT think that the government doesn't give a shit about you? whether fair or not, justified or not, the perception is there and it has a lot of history behind it, no matter how many black people live in wealthy neighborhoods.
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Old 09-05-2005, 07:40 PM   #161
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^It's true that the majority of inner city poor are black. Poor whites generally live in small towns, Appalachia, etc like U2Bama said. In the case of NO, obviously the overwhelming majority of the poor who were left were blacks, because it was the inner city we're talking about.

I agree with you that the relevant thing is generally percentages of poverty within each race, but my main point was that it's not fair to say being poor and being black in the south are the same thing, just looking at the sheer numbers.
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Old 09-05-2005, 08:16 PM   #162
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Yeah, I think there's a lot of factors in why things have been the way they are this past week, why some people weren't helped as quickly as others. While I do agree that sometimes people are too quick to play the race card in certain issues, at the same time, I could see where it could've been a factor here, because, sadly, there are still racial problems in some areas of this country, and it wouldn't surprise me if some had surfaced here.

But like I said earlier, we should be helping all people from all walks of life through this tragedy. I don't care whether they're white, black, young, old, poor, rich, whatever, they all deserve our attention and help. I think that, at least, everyone here can agree on.

Also...

Quote:
Originally posted by corianderstem
I'm with you, Hello Angel.

A lot of people are saying it wasn't the right time to say what he said. When is the right time? Maybe this IS the right time to start expressing frustration. Maybe people will start listening to the sheer anger and outrage so many are feeling right now. Maybe more people should start saying what they feel, appropriateness, timing or political correctness be damned.

(To be fair, I only agree with Kanye to a point - I think Bush doesn't care about the poor, not just African Americans.)

And if anyone was turned off enough by his statements to put their checkbook away and NOT donate to the Red Cross, then I have two strong words for them. Anyone with half a brain knows the Red Cross has nothing to do with Kanye West, and the human need always rises above political disagreement.
Excellent post .

Angela
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Old 09-05-2005, 08:44 PM   #163
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
i agree that my sarcasm was a bit inappropriate. for that i apologize.

however, it comes from the fact that i am sick to death of people giving anecdotal pieces of evidence, and from that extrapolating that social conditions such as they understand them despite evidence to the contrary.
Thanks.

But I guess my point is that my "evidence" is simply dismissed as "anecdotal pieces" of such. Perhaps you don't consider it relevant or worthy of consideration in the bigger picture, or perhaps you simply consider it the exception to the rule. I cannot convince you other wise. But it does disturb me when people choose to ignore such "evidence" because they don't want to acknowledge such accounts of progress (there's that word again) in the status quo (and I'm not talking about the Katrina crisis/aftermath). Personally, I value the diversity of my community and I think it's a cussess story.

~U2Alabama
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Old 09-06-2005, 12:50 AM   #164
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i am happy he said it. people should be free to speak their mind. why do you have to be "nice" when you're on TV? keep it real.
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Old 09-06-2005, 04:47 AM   #165
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You know what find the funniest about this whole thing is that it was supposedly the Democratic Governor of Louisiana who gave the order to shoot and kill the looters:

"Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco warned rioters and looters in New Orleans on Thursday that National Guard troops are under her orders to "shoot and kill" to end the rampant violence in the city in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. Announcing the arrival of 300 Arkansas National Guard troops in New Orleans fresh from service in Iraq, Blanco said, "these troops are battle-tested. They have M-16s and are locked and loaded." "These troops know how to shoot and kill and I expect they will," she said."
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