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Old 02-01-2007, 04:39 PM   #61
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Originally posted by Irvine511
i'm sorry, but you're doing a terrible thing to an HIV positive person if you rejected them when they disclose, but have sex with them when they don't. that inspires sneaky, devious behavior, and that can't be a good thing.

i think we can all agree that disclosure is the best policy, but punishment for disclosure is something else.
punishment?

first of all, the HIV positive person is doing a terrible thing to me when they don´t disclose (in case they know, of course).

in that case, my own health is the most important thing. sorry, it´s a tad bit more important than what i do to the life of the HIV positive person.

if HIV positive a good person, it does not inspire sneaky behaviour. that´s a cop-out, irvine. if this is a good, true and honest person, he/she will always tell the sexual partner before (assuming he/she knows of being positive).

if you are positive, you are responsible for your health; if you don´t tell, you´re robbing the other´s right to freely decide if he/ she wants to take this risk for his/ her own health.

there are possibilites to minimize the risk. a friend of mine (social worker) has been working at the local HIV center being confronted with such situations every day. yes, it is possible to live with an HIV positive person together for many years. however, there is still a risk. it really depends on the relation whether people stay together or not after one of them has found out he´s positive, with every single case it´s a new situation.

when having "casual" sex however, one night stand, whatever, imo it´s the duty of the person who is positive and who knows it, to tell the truth (not only when asked).

if you think you can lead a totally free life when you´re positive, fucking around with whoever you like without giving a shit, you´re on the wrong way, no matter whether you think you can protect the other person by using a condom.

your sexual partner has the right to say: "if you weren´t ill, i would like to have sex with you. but you are ill, and sorry, this is too dangerous for me". he/ she has that right, no matter how bad that is for the opposite.
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Old 02-01-2007, 05:00 PM   #62
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Originally posted by Irvine511
about how some people will sleep with anyone if they don't know your HIV status, but will drop you like a rock the moment they find out that you're positive.

and this is what i think is most harmful -- you're encouraging deception.
yeah, well excuse me but that´s life

at the moment, i don´t have such a multi faceted sex life because i´m in love, but there were times when i had.

obviously, i have not slept with anyone, but with some women who i fell in love with - maybe just for a couple of weeks - who were attractive, without waiting until we go steady.

obviously, i would not have slept with them if they were HIV positive.

and you have the nerve to tell me i´m encouraging deception? bullshit. it´s my decision who i want to have sex with. maybe fucking around is not the most intelligent way how to deal with it, but i don´t think i´m encouraging deception by saying "no" where i would have said "yes", if...

the person practising deception is responsible for practising deception, not me.

i think the reaction can make a lot of difference. to "drop someone like a rock" is cruel.

but why should someone feel cheated when there is a good talk and where people can still respect each other, meet each other, be friends or have a sex-free relation. why would this be encouraging deception?

if this leads to deception, then just because the HIV positive person is selfish enough to think life is easier for him/her (in terms of getting the sex he/she needs) when he/she lies.
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Old 02-01-2007, 06:17 PM   #63
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Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars
[B]

yeah, well excuse me but that´s life

at the moment, i don´t have such a multi faceted sex life because i´m in love, but there were times when i had.

obviously, i have not slept with anyone, but with some women who i fell in love with - maybe just for a couple of weeks - who were attractive, without waiting until we go steady.

obviously, i would not have slept with them if they were HIV positive.

and this is a great example. thanks for bringing it up.


[q]and you have the nerve to tell me i´m encouraging deception? bullshit. it´s my decision who i want to have sex with. maybe fucking around is not the most intelligent way how to deal with it, but i don´t think i´m encouraging deception by saying "no" where i would have said "yes", if...

the person practising deception is responsible for practising deception, not me.[/q]


can we understand that i'm not condoing someone not disclosing their stauts while at the same time acknolwedging that if an HIV person is going to be tossed aside like rubbish -- as you've said you would do -- when they do disclose, that you're going to inspire (whether justified or not, whether fair or not) more deceptive behavior.

you'd sleep with someone if you don't know their status, positive or negative, but you won't sleep with someone when you know their positive status even though there are numerous things you can do to protect yourself?

that, to me, is discrimination. and while i understand where it comes from, please stop for a moment and put yourself in the place of the HIV positive person.

i also wonder if we aren't less sympathetic to HIV positive people because of the underlying thoughts that they've done something to deserve their status, that they're gigantic sluts, that they've obviously had unprotected sex, that they've allowed themselves to become infected.

anyway, this is the crux of my point: you (the hypothetical you) will sleep with anyone if you don't know their stauts, but you'll drop someone like a rock if you know they're negative even if you have protected intercourse. that, to me, seems hypocritical.
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Old 02-01-2007, 06:20 PM   #64
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by babble
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
but we also know that the disease is 100% preventable

I think this is where the crux of the disagreement lies.
According to the CDC , condoms have been proven to be highly effective in preventing the transmission of AIDS but there is no absolute guarantee. As yet, the only way to guarantee that you will not become infected with HIV is to abstain from sexual relations with an HIV positive individual.

Although condoms have been proven to be highly effective in preventing the transmission of HIV, and as you have pointed out, it is possible to have a sexual relationship with an HIV positive individual and not contract HIV, we can't dismiss the fact that there is still a chance, however small, that one might contract this life-threatening disease through sexual relations with an HIV-positive person.

i respect your thoughtful post and do understand it, but i also want to add that the insistence upon abstinence is a highly political inclusion into the CDC due to the Bush administration's subservience to Christian special interest groups.

i agree, it's factual, you won't get infected if you don't have sex, but placing it side-by-side with condoms, and only calling them "highly effective" as opposed to the usual 99% (and that's only for pregnancy, it's harder to catch HIV than it is to get pregnant) when used properly.

again, i know long-term couples who have happy sex lives where one is positive and the other remains negative. all it takes is a little education and precautions, as well as sympathy for people who are HIV positive.
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Old 02-01-2007, 06:44 PM   #65
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No one is dropping someone like a rock.

And I know that there are many cases you can get HIV infected, like a transition of blood.
This even could happen through kissing, when the other person has a tiny bleeding.

They said the Titanic will never ever, not in a gazillion years, sink.
Everyone knows what happened.
There is not this 100% safetyness, and everyone has the right to consider this.

It is hard for an HIV infected person, no question, but does that give them the right to blame me for being healthy, and stay healthy.

I've said it before, when the partner is honest beforehand, you can have a talk about it, you can attend the doctor to speak it through with him, and you for sure can work it out somehow.

There is no right of having sex, regardless the danger. But there is the right for everyone to say "no" when it comes to a point where your health is at risk.
That's why in Germany a draftee can say "no" to get send abroad. Because it is a decision concerning his health and life.

And I think there is an order in the responsibility, made by common sense.
First, the knowingly HIV infected (and we can only talk about knowingly affected, of course) has to tell his/her partner about there status, second in this order of responsibilty comes the question if the partner is HIV infected.
If you're not sure, for whatever reasons, attend the doctor to make the examination.

But you can't say it's like "Don't ask, don't tell".

Nowadays, everything gets called "hypocritical". I don't even want to count how many times this word appears on this board.
Everything is just blamed hypcritical today. So for the future we should take minutes of every single word we say, so that we can get through it whenever we enter a new discussion.

In my view it is not hypocritical at all.
Of course I would blame myself for being so naive not to ask. Still I would of course blame the other person for putting me at a risk she knew about, and for her own sake she didn't tell me.

Next I have to feel guilty for being healthy (healthy at least concerning STD's, but my asthma can't get transmitted) and to decide to stay healthy.

I said it before, it can't be that I have to say yes only that the other person would feel better.

What you're saying is that it is my repsonsibility to ask, but you leave out the other person's responsibility to tell. Why am I more responsible?

And you asked why we don't tell the other person beforehand that we are negative.
Well, that would be like you're entering a plane, and then get approached by the pilot only to get told "Sir, I only wanted to inform you that this plane is safe and there are no known problems."
How would you feel then?
Well, I would be highly confused and ask myself, "Why the hell did he tell me the obvious?"
With sex it is similar. You know of the potential danger. But would you ask the stewardess upon entering, "Are there any known problems with this plane?"
And after you arrived, and the pilot told you, "Well, before we started we didn't know if this plane will make the flight because there was some problem that could have resulted in a crash."
Would you ever fly this airline again, because otherwise you would be hypocrite?

So your partner has to tell you, whether you ask or not.

Sex is a nice thing, no question, but it's not essential.
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Old 02-01-2007, 06:51 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

again, i know long-term couples who have happy sex lives where one is positive and the other remains negative. all it takes is a little education and precautions, as well as sympathy for people who are HIV positive.
But in this case both know about the other's condition, and both have agreed on having sex. Both have said yes.
But it shouldn't be made mandatory to say "yes".

Both have agreed on taking the risk.
It is a tiny risk, still I want to be free to take this risk.

The risk of dying through an anaesthesia is very, very low as well. Still you have to sign a paper that you acknowledge the risk. And you can sue the hospital when they didn't inform you about the risk, even though it is common knowledge that there are risks.

Both parties have to agree, not one.

That's totally different from the one who knows about being positive, and not telling the other.
That is cheating for the own gain.
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Old 02-01-2007, 08:19 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

anyway, this is the crux of my point: you (the hypothetical you) will sleep with anyone if you don't know their stauts, but you'll drop someone like a rock if you know they're negative even if you have protected intercourse. that, to me, seems hypocritical.
Not me! I'd never even have oral sex with someone without have this discussion beforehand.

I think at this point, at least you and I, can agree to disagree? I agree that it's not fair to place the responsibility solely on the other parter. But I disagree that I'm doing a terrible thing by protecting myself and sticking to my own standards.

I guess the crux of MY point is that the decisions I make on sexual health are decisions that I made when I was 16 years old. I don't change my standards based on the person and whether or not he might have this or that. These are standards I made for MY own body before I was even interested in serious relationships. I think it's quite odd to tell young men and women that they should change their standards because they might hurt someone's feelings (someone who's already been sneaky and betrayed trust) or that they should put their lives at risk to have sexual relations with partners who aren't even committed enough to disclose. I will sympathize for HIV+ people as far as they will show respect for me and my boundaries. Maybe I'm not understanding you correctly, but what I'm reading makes me
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Old 02-01-2007, 09:24 PM   #68
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So we are expected to sleep with HIV positive people out of sympathy for them? That if we say no - because of the risk - however minute it would be we're discriminating against them? Why about my choices of a partner? Why am I not "Allowed" to reject someone with HIV? And for the record - it has nothing to do with any preconceptions against them - i have nothing against people sleeping around and a lot of the time people contract HIV from blood transfusions or sharing needles (i wouldn't be with a drug adict either - but am i discriminating because i don't want to catch hepatitus from them? or deal with the consequences of having a drug addict in my life?) So i don't feel anything towards HIV people, perhaps sympathy for them aquiring the disease and hope that a cure can be found, but other then that, if someone feels im slighting them because i don't want to risk my health (as i've said before, condoms are effective but not 100% of the time) then thats their fault for feeling that way. Move on - find someone else there are support groups for HIV suffers and im sure there are people there who will be more then happy to enter into a relationship with them.
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Old 02-01-2007, 10:19 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vincent Vega
Sex is a nice thing, no question, but it's not essential.
What, are you nuts?!!

I've only skimmed this thread, but I don't have an issue with assuming all future partners are "guilty till proven innocent" or to having protected sex until the end of time. Maybe it's because I'm single and don't expect to know everybody's status or history, the same way I dont' expect them to know mine
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Old 02-02-2007, 10:04 AM   #70
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Originally posted by dazzlingamy
So we are expected to sleep with HIV positive people out of sympathy for them? That if we say no - because of the risk - however minute it would be we're discriminating against them?


oy. i knew people were going to take it this way, and i guess i have to realize, as i've stated before, that most people don't have to deal with the issue of HIV, how it is and isn't transmitted as well as actually knowing people with HIV, the way your everday gay man living in a city does.

so, with all that in mind, i'll reiterate my main points:

1. it is your responsibility to inquire about a sexual history just as much as it is someone else's responsibility to disclose their HIV status or any other STDs (though we all know that people don't do this ... and do we demand to know if somone once had another STD at some point in their life, or is HIV different?)

2. failure to do so on both ends should not result in blame solely on the HIV positive person -- they didn't tell, but you didn't ask, so you're both idiots, imho.

3. it's dangerous to assume that people are negative unless they tell you that they are positive.

4. to drop someone on -- whether kindly or not -- soley on the basis of their HIV status is discrimination. maybe understandable discrimination, but it is discrimination nonetheless when we are presented with ample evidence that people can be in long term relationships and never once transmit the virus to one another. worries about transmitting HIV through kissing are quite ignorant. i look back on the few (2) happy couples i know where one is positive and one is negative and i think of how terrible it would be if the negative partners had the same attitudes expressed on this board -- fear.

5. whether fair or not, if you are down for a one night stand with someone when you don't know their status, and then reject them outright when you do know their status even when you've intended to use protection from the beginning is doing to inspire more deceptive behavior on the HIV+ person in the future.
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Old 02-02-2007, 10:41 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511


5. whether fair or not, if you are down for a one night stand with someone when you don't know their status, and then reject them outright when you do know their status even when you've intended to use protection from the beginning is doing to inspire more deceptive behavior on the HIV+ person in the future.
What if you left them not because they had HIV, but because they were deceptive about it, would that encourage less deceptive behavior in the future?
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Old 02-02-2007, 11:27 AM   #72
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Originally posted by Chizip


What if you left them not because they had HIV, but because they were deceptive about it, would that encourage less deceptive behavior in the future?

i think that's a good distinction, and if you were dropping them, i think that would be a very good point to make -- imho, that would be exactly the right thing to do becaus that makes the issue about honest, not about a disease.
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Old 02-02-2007, 11:47 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511



so, with all that in mind, i'll reiterate my main points:

1. it is your responsibility to inquire about a sexual history just as much as it is someone else's responsibility to disclose their HIV status or any other STDs (though we all know that people don't do this ... and do we demand to know if somone once had another STD at some point in their life, or is HIV different?)

2. failure to do so on both ends should not result in blame solely on the HIV positive person -- they didn't tell, but you didn't ask, so you're both idiots, imho.

3. it's dangerous to assume that people are negative unless they tell you that they are positive.

4. to drop someone on -- whether kindly or not -- soley on the basis of their HIV status is discrimination. maybe understandable discrimination, but it is discrimination nonetheless when we are presented with ample evidence that people can be in long term relationships and never once transmit the virus to one another. worries about transmitting HIV through kissing are quite ignorant. i look back on the few (2) happy couples i know where one is positive and one is negative and i think of how terrible it would be if the negative partners had the same attitudes expressed on this board -- fear.

5. whether fair or not, if you are down for a one night stand with someone when you don't know their status, and then reject them outright when you do know their status even when you've intended to use protection from the beginning is doing to inspire more deceptive behavior on the HIV+ person in the future.

I agree with 1-3.

4. Yeah, I guess you can call it discrimination, but to me discrimination usually means you're making assumptions about other people based on a single characteristic. For example, if I said "HIV+ people are gross and nasty people, simply b/c they have HIV", that would be discriminatory because I'm making a judgment based on THEM. But when I say I won't sleep with someone who has HIV, it's NOT because I don't like them, I think they are gross, etc, etc, it's because I - ME - have decided that I'm not getting an STD. It really has nothing to do with the other person. If someone said "You'll get an STD if you sit on that toilet" (yeah I know it's not true), I wouldn't sit on the toilet. It's about me, not the other person, or object, or whatever.

Do I fear HIV? Hells yes! Who doesn't? I guess if I'm labeled a discriminatory person b/c I don't want to die and also put my future children and my current partner at risk, than so be it. But I don't fear the other person and I don't make judgments about them based on the disease, I fear the disease itself.

5. As for deceptive behavior, I can't hold myself responsible for how other people choose to act. The only thing that I think really encourages deceptive behavior is being deceptive yourself, and I don't agree that being up front about sexual health is deceptive, in fact I think it's everything but deceptive. If that somehow encourages others to act deceptively b/c they are afraid of the truth or would rather lie, then that's their problem, not mine.
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Old 02-02-2007, 12:28 PM   #74
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Originally posted by Liesje
Do I fear HIV? Hells yes! Who doesn't? I guess if I'm labeled a discriminatory person b/c I don't want to die and also put my future children and my current partner at risk, than so be it. But I don't fear the other person and I don't make judgments about them based on the disease, I fear the disease itself.



i totally understand the fear -- and am glad i am in a monogamous relationship and not dating because Memphis and i trust each other and we're honest so it's huge relief not to have to worry about death and stuff while dating -- but we also know that you can be with someone and never contract HIV. look at Magic Johnson and his wife -- he's positive, she's negative, and they've stayed that way since 1991 or whenever he tested positive.





Quote:
5. As for deceptive behavior, I can't hold myself responsible for how other people choose to act. The only thing that I think really encourages deceptive behavior is being deceptive yourself, and I don't agree that being up front about sexual health is deceptive, in fact I think it's everything but deceptive. If that somehow encourages others to act deceptively b/c they are afraid of the truth or would rather lie, then that's their problem, not mine.

that makes sense, but i think we also have to be realistic about these things, and i think the vast majority of HIV+ people understand the fear and they don't want to infect anyone.
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Old 02-02-2007, 06:08 PM   #75
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Good grief... what a horrible thing to do! (Referring to the original post, obviously!)
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