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Old 03-25-2005, 01:47 PM   #1
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Happy Easter, Now Apologize for the Crusades?

Al-Azhar – The Vatican

Official apologies demanded

Morocco TIMES 3/17/2005 | 10:36 am

Egyptian highest religious authority Al-Azhar has requested the Vatican to present official apologies on Christian crusades carried out against Muslims seven centuries ago.



Sheikh Fawzi Zafzaf, President of the Interfaith Dialogue Committee of Al-Azhar, said during a press conference that his committee has sent a request to the Pope last February, demanding an official apology on Christian crusades against the Muslim world, following the example of the Jews.

The principle of demanding apology from the Vatican germinated following Pope Jean Paul II's visit to Syria and Egypt a few years ago, and the apologies the Catholic Church presented to the Jewish and some other Christian doctrines, explained Sheikh Zafzaf. “Al-Azhar is only asking for a similar treatment,” he added.

The Vatican's ambassador to Egypt has abstained from commenting, saying that Al-Azhar's request is now being considered by the Holy See.
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Old 03-25-2005, 01:57 PM   #2
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Only if the Muslim world apologizes for conquering the Middle East, Asia Minor, Persia, North Africa and Spain and killing or subjugating the infidels. And 9/11.

Or was Islam spread peacefully, through missionary work?
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Old 03-25-2005, 02:12 PM   #3
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The Catholics have actually apologized to the Greeks for the 1204 Frankish sacking of Constantinople, which was really what facilitated the Crusades, and all of the other things that made the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches split in 1054. Although Catholics generally agree that the Crusades were a disgrace, and political and materialistic campaigns dressed up as religion, a "formal" apology is unlikely because of the continued tensions beween the Islamic and the Christian worlds. These tensions didn't start on 9/11, they just got a heck of alot worse.
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Old 03-25-2005, 02:24 PM   #4
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I know a little bit about the spread of Islam, not as much as I'd like to. In some cases it wasn't as bad as we think because the conquerers, in many cases, did not force the native population to change their religion. When they conquered Damascus, they promised not to harm the churches. They did offer incentives to convert, such as tax breaks, but so did the Christians when they were converting Europe. In many cases the churches in the towns were converted into mosques; the Ayasofia Museum in Istanbul was originally a church, (Hagia Sofia is Greek for "holy wisdom"), and the Turks turned it into a mosque. Hagia Sofia was the most prestigious church in the Greek Orthodox world, and I'm not sure, but this may have made the Turks turn it into a mosque, since they left other churches alone and let the Jews build more synagogues than the Greeks had. Generally, though, the Turks practiced more toleration than Christians did in Europe. When Ferdinand and Isabella kicked the Jews out of Spain, they were welcomed in the Ottoman lands. It's a long story but this is impacting Jewish life big time to this day. The original concept of "jihad" is a personal struggle against sin. It was the Wahhabis of Saudi Arabia who started to emphasize this as "holy war" against the "infidel". This sect was started in the eighteenth century for a tribal Arab aristocracy, and now it's influencing the whole world big time.
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Old 03-25-2005, 02:25 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by drhark
Only if the Muslim world apologizes for conquering the Middle East, Asia Minor, Persia, North Africa and Spain and killing or subjugating the infidels. And 9/11.
Bingo. This is not a one-way street.
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Old 03-25-2005, 02:36 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by drhark
Only if the Muslim world apologizes for conquering the Middle East, Asia Minor, Persia, North Africa and Spain and killing or subjugating the infidels. And 9/11.

Or was Islam spread peacefully, through missionary work?
Good grief, going into the conquest of all of these countries is a library full of history books! I've been studying Asia Minor alone, Turkey, for two years. It's a ton of material. The French, or Franks, as they were still often called, were in the Byzantine Empire when it was in the latter centuries of its existence in the Balkans and Asia Minor. Some of the last Byzantine Emperors were horrific. Some mainly knew how to spend money, not rule. The French and the Byzantines had very different ideas about how to do things. This included important things like how to handle prisoners of war. The French wanted to kill them or sell them into slavery; the Greeks sent them home. In general, the French were a pain in the ass to the Byzantine rulers. The Byzantines were letting the Turks convert the Greek-speaking people as Asia Minor into Turkish speakers. The Turks were originally tribes from Central Asia who poured into Asia Minor looking for land. The Greeks were having so much trouble with the French that they didn't fight the Turks as hard as they should have. By 1350 Asia Minor was culturally Turkish. There were many Christians there, still. in the sixteenth century Suleiman's brilliant architech, Sinan, was born in Asia Minor of Christian parents. I've probably made at least one mistake and all_i_want will correct me.
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Old 03-25-2005, 02:36 PM   #7
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I don't care what religion is being asked to apologize for grievances from centuries ago, I personally don't agree with that method of dealing with the problems of the past, as not all of the people living today agree with what the people from the religion they follow, whatever one it may be, did centuries ago to others. And besides that, what good will apologizing now for what happened thousands of years ago do? It won't change the past-the problems that occurred will still be in the history books.

IMHO, the best way to apologize, so to speak, would be for today's followers from every religion to learn from any mistakes that the people of their respective religions may have made towards others in the past, and to do everything in their power to avoid having those same mistakes happen again.

Angela
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Old 03-25-2005, 02:40 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by drhark
Only if the Muslim world apologizes for conquering the Middle East, Asia Minor, Persia, North Africa and Spain and killing or subjugating the infidels. And 9/11.

Or was Islam spread peacefully, through missionary work?
First of all apologizing for something centuries ago will solve nothing. I think it's pointless.

But if there were to be an apology it shouldn't come with a disclaimer like this. That's ridiculous. For true apologies need no disclaimers.
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Old 03-25-2005, 02:47 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel
I don't care what religion is being asked to apologize for grievances from centuries ago, I personally don't agree with that method of dealing with the problems of the past, as not all of the people living today agree with what the people from the religion they follow, whatever one it may be, did centuries ago to others. And besides that, what good will apologizing now for what happened thousands of years ago do? It won't change the past-the problems that occurred will still be in the history books.
Yes. It's history. That's what they are now, that's what they'll always be. If we can never accept that the conflicts are all in the past, when are we going to move on?

Quote:
Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel
IMHO, the best way to apologize, so to speak, would be for today's followers from every religion to learn from any mistakes that the people of their respective religions may have made towards others in the past, and to do everything in their power to avoid having those same mistakes happen again.
True. Perhaps a serious amount of respect between faiths must be established. Everyone is entitled to whatever beliefs they want, but differences in beliefs need a deeper respect. You have your freedom to believe in whatever gets you through the day, and I have mine. When beliefs are forced upon people through violence, it benefits nobody.
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Old 03-25-2005, 03:06 PM   #10
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Good point, BVS.

Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
Yes. It's history. That's what they are now, that's what they'll always be. If we can never accept that the conflicts are all in the past, when are we going to move on?

True. Perhaps a serious amount of respect between faiths must be established. Everyone is entitled to whatever beliefs they want, but differences in beliefs need a deeper respect. You have your freedom to believe in whatever gets you through the day, and I have mine. When beliefs are forced upon people through violence, it benefits nobody.
. Exactly right.

Angela
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Old 03-25-2005, 03:14 PM   #11
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


First of all apologizing for something centuries ago will solve nothing. I think it's pointless.

But if there were to be an apology it shouldn't come with a disclaimer like this. That's ridiculous. For true apologies need no disclaimers.
I agree. One group's ancestors or religious progeny apologizing to another's is ridiculous.

Being of Celtic, Anglo-Saxon and Germanic descent, I demand apologies from the descendants of Vikings, the Anglo-Saxons, the Huns, the visigoths, the Galls, the Romans, the Greeks, the Huns, Mongols, the Babylonians, and possibly the Chaldeans. (and don't hold me to my history, I just threw all those out there at random)

I added the disclaimer as sarcasm and Crusades myth busting.
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Old 03-25-2005, 03:30 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


First of all apologizing for something centuries ago will solve nothing. I think it's pointless.

But if there were to be an apology it shouldn't come with a disclaimer like this. That's ridiculous. For true apologies need no disclaimers.
I agree. The request contained in the article posted by deep is pointless.
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Old 03-25-2005, 03:50 PM   #13
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Oh, I agree with you guys, an apology is absolutely pointless. Now, the Second Vatican Council did come to grips with the anti-Semitism in the Church's history, because it was there, we can't sweep it under the rug and the Holocaust happened. But I wouldn't really call it an apology, it was more like the Church was honest about some things that can be proved historically that it had been silent about beforehand, that anti-Semitic atrocities happened throughout the Middle Ages and on through the twentieth century in Catholic populations and countries.
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Old 03-25-2005, 04:12 PM   #14
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Would all people still alive from the time of the Crusades please raise your hand?

*crickets*

Would all people personally affected in a negative way by the Crusades please raise your hand?

*crickets*
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Old 03-25-2005, 04:36 PM   #15
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No.
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