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Old 03-25-2005, 05:08 PM   #16
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I'm a moderate Muslim in North America (moderate in terms of being open to other peoples thoughts/ideas, tolerance of other religions, but not straying from rituals, beliefs etc)

Sheikh Fawzi Zafzaf is a moron. I don't need to say more about him.

drhark: "killing or subjugating the infidels. And 9/11"

i don't understand what you mean by that. who in the muslim world (who is actually considered to be a proper muslim state) killed any "infidels" (whatever your definition of infidel is supposed to mean)

and 9/11? gimmie a fucking break, everyone from the spanish islamic council to cat stevens to the islamic society of north america to general musharaff of pakistan to Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia to the muslim majority around the world have denounced the acts of 9/11.

1 in 5 people in the world are muslims. we're going to have some fucked up people too. christians had their dirty laundry too. and they also have their gems as well.
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Old 03-25-2005, 05:25 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by verte76
I know a little bit about the spread of Islam, not as much as I'd like to. In some cases it wasn't as bad as we think because the conquerers, in many cases, did not force the native population to change their religion. When they conquered Damascus, they promised not to harm the churches. They did offer incentives to convert, such as tax breaks, but so did the Christians when they were converting Europe. In many cases the churches in the towns were converted into mosques; the Ayasofia Museum in Istanbul was originally a church, (Hagia Sofia is Greek for "holy wisdom"), and the Turks turned it into a mosque. Hagia Sofia was the most prestigious church in the Greek Orthodox world, and I'm not sure, but this may have made the Turks turn it into a mosque, since they left other churches alone and let the Jews build more synagogues than the Greeks had. Generally, though, the Turks practiced more toleration than Christians did in Europe. When Ferdinand and Isabella kicked the Jews out of Spain, they were welcomed in the Ottoman lands. It's a long story but this is impacting Jewish life big time to this day. The original concept of "jihad" is a personal struggle against sin. It was the Wahhabis of Saudi Arabia who started to emphasize this as "holy war" against the "infidel". This sect was started in the eighteenth century for a tribal Arab aristocracy, and now it's influencing the whole world big time.
you are totally right about jihad. only the true students of knowledge in islam know what this means, not the fakers who think killing yourself will give you heaven...

jihad can be many things... to me its MLK speaking out his dream, its about keeping yourself together, its about Bono going to Bush asking for relief for the third world, etc
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Old 03-25-2005, 05:36 PM   #18
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Throw a rock in the air you are bound to hit someone guilty......
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Old 03-25-2005, 05:46 PM   #19
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Re: Happy Easter, Now Apologize for the Crusades?

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Originally posted by deep
Al-Azhar – The Vatican

Official apologies demanded

Morocco TIMES 3/17/2005 | 10:36 am

Egyptian highest religious authority Al-Azhar has requested the Vatican to present official apologies on Christian crusades carried out against Muslims seven centuries ago.



Sheikh Fawzi Zafzaf, President of the Interfaith Dialogue Committee of Al-Azhar, said during a press conference that his committee has sent a request to the Pope last February, demanding an official apology on Christian crusades against the Muslim world, following the example of the Jews.

The principle of demanding apology from the Vatican germinated following Pope Jean Paul II's visit to Syria and Egypt a few years ago, and the apologies the Catholic Church presented to the Jewish and some other Christian doctrines, explained Sheikh Zafzaf. “Al-Azhar is only asking for a similar treatment,” he added.

The Vatican's ambassador to Egypt has abstained from commenting, saying that Al-Azhar's request is now being considered by the Holy See.

I hereby apologize for the Vatican. I'm sorry we didn't finish the job.
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Old 03-25-2005, 05:47 PM   #20
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Re: Re: Happy Easter, Now Apologize for the Crusades?

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Originally posted by misiek



I hereby apologize for the Vatican. I'm sorry we didn't finish the job.
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Old 03-25-2005, 06:06 PM   #21
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Re: Re: Happy Easter, Now Apologize for the Crusades?

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Originally posted by misiek



I hereby apologize for the Vatican. I'm sorry we didn't finish the job.

i am glad you couldnt finish the job

and im quite happy with the role of my ancestors in your failure, as well.

one interesting addition to verte's post earlier, most of the time turks were in asia minor, we didnt alwats fight the byzantines to get their lands. occasionally, we made deals with them against their other christian enemies, protected their kings from betrayals etc. thats how turks spread all over asia minor that quickly.

and then of course, we were kind of on the road to jerusalem from europe, so we basicly got to fight with every single crusader first hand. and so did the byzantines, especially after their capital was sacked by the franks.

quite messy business, these crusades.
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Old 03-25-2005, 07:34 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by modsavage
Throw a rock in the air you are bound to hit someone guilty......
Those days, days, days run away like horses over the hill...
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Old 03-26-2005, 06:25 AM   #23
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Yes, if I'm not mistaken the literal meaning of the word "jihad" is "struggle", and it's generally used to describe the individual Muslim's struggle against their personal sin. It has nothing to do with politics or war. The only Muslims who use "jihad" as a "holy war" concept are the Wahhabis, and the overwhelming majority of Muslims outside of Saudi Arabia are not Wahhabis.

*edited due to stupid typing mistakes*
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Old 03-26-2005, 07:55 AM   #24
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Re: Happy Easter, Now Apologize for the Crusades?

Quote:
Originally posted by deep
Al-Azhar – The Vatican

Official apologies demanded

Morocco TIMES 3/17/2005 | 10:36 am

Egyptian highest religious authority Al-Azhar has requested the Vatican to present official apologies on Christian crusades carried out against Muslims seven centuries ago.



Sheikh Fawzi Zafzaf, President of the Interfaith Dialogue Committee of Al-Azhar, said during a press conference that his committee has sent a request to the Pope last February, demanding an official apology on Christian crusades against the Muslim world, following the example of the Jews.

The principle of demanding apology from the Vatican germinated following Pope Jean Paul II's visit to Syria and Egypt a few years ago, and the apologies the Catholic Church presented to the Jewish and some other Christian doctrines, explained Sheikh Zafzaf. “Al-Azhar is only asking for a similar treatment,” he added.

The Vatican's ambassador to Egypt has abstained from commenting, saying that Al-Azhar's request is now being considered by the Holy See.
Where's the apology for the spreading conquering Ottoman empire which spawned the crusades ?
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Old 03-26-2005, 07:56 AM   #25
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Re: Re: Happy Easter, Now Apologize for the Crusades?

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Originally posted by cardosino


Where's the apology for the spreading conquering Ottoman empire which spawned the crusades ?
Wrong war dumbass.....moer espresso......
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Old 03-26-2005, 07:58 AM   #26
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Re: Re: Re: Happy Easter, Now Apologize for the Crusades?

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Originally posted by cardosino


Wrong war dumbass.....moer espresso......
yeah.. the ottomans kinda appeared long after the hard core crusaders were gone
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Old 03-26-2005, 08:08 AM   #27
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That's right, the Turks who were conquering Asia Minor during the Crusades were the Seljuk Turks, not the Ottoman Turks. Whole different people.
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Old 03-26-2005, 10:25 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by bcrt2000
I'm a moderate Muslim in North America (moderate in terms of being open to other peoples thoughts/ideas, tolerance of other religions, but not straying from rituals, beliefs etc)

Sheikh Fawzi Zafzaf is a moron. I don't need to say more about him.

drhark: "killing or subjugating the infidels. And 9/11"

i don't understand what you mean by that. who in the muslim world (who is actually considered to be a proper muslim state) killed any "infidels" (whatever your definition of infidel is supposed to mean)

and 9/11? gimmie a fucking break, everyone from the spanish islamic council to cat stevens to the islamic society of north america to general musharaff of pakistan to Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia to the muslim majority around the world have denounced the acts of 9/11.

1 in 5 people in the world are muslims. we're going to have some fucked up people too. christians had their dirty laundry too. and they also have their gems as well.

I threw 9/11 in there to be sarcastic because the idea of an apology is insane. EVERYBODY who had any power was brutal back then. That's how the world worked. I do know, however, that in the early days of Christianity it was spread very effectively throughout the Roman Empire by word of mouth, not by war, violence or conquering. IN fact, I'm pretty sure the founder of Christianity never killed anyone.
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Old 03-26-2005, 10:44 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by drhark



I threw 9/11 in there to be sarcastic because the idea of an apology is insane. EVERYBODY who had any power was brutal back then. That's how the world worked. I do know, however, that in the early days of Christianity it was spread very effectively throughout the Roman Empire by word of mouth, not by war, violence or conquering. IN fact, I'm pretty sure the founder of Christianity never killed anyone.

Later Christians did use force to convert heathen populations. When Charlemagne conquered the Saxons in the late eighth century, he gave them a choice between baptism and death. He wasn't the only Christian ruler to do this, just the most famous.
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Old 03-26-2005, 07:49 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by drhark



I threw 9/11 in there to be sarcastic because the idea of an apology is insane. EVERYBODY who had any power was brutal back then. That's how the world worked. I do know, however, that in the early days of Christianity it was spread very effectively throughout the Roman Empire by word of mouth, not by war, violence or conquering. IN fact, I'm pretty sure the founder of Christianity never killed anyone.
First of all everyone who had power was not brutal, only the ones we read of in the history books because the worst rulers are always the ones that people remember.

And I know that its a fact Jesus never killed anyone, and I also believe in Jesus, but as a prophet. Jesus was a man of incredible intellect and he used that to the best of his ability to spark a cultural/spiritual uprising. But there are many prophets who came before Jesus who were not like Jesus, so you cannot look down upon Muslims because of that fact.

Secondly you have a misconception about the spread of Islam. Islam was not spread by people forcing their ways over others and killing people if they did not obey. The Muslim empire grew and grew but the Muslim leaders left the governments and institutions that already existed in the places the conquered mainly intact for the reason that the empire was too big to micromanage, and that it would be very hard to enforce your rule on others without social unrest. Islam spread very slowly through people converting over generations, it didn't happen over night as some might lead you to believe. That being said there have been Muslims rulers here and there who were unjust, but that is true about every era and every religion.
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