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Old 06-14-2007, 05:17 PM   #1
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Hamas Winning Civil War

with not one (Iraq), not two (Lebanon), but an amazing THREE (Gaza) civil wars raging in the Middle East, and with the summer about to get hotter, it seems that the most intriguing one, at this point, is what's going on in Gaza.

regard:

[q]
GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip
- A beleaguered Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas declared a state of emergency and disbanded the Hamas-led unity government after the Islamic militant group vanquished its Fatah rivals and effectively took control of the Gaza Strip on Thursday.

Fearful that Hamas' momentum could spread to the West Bank, Fatah went on the offensive there, rounding up three dozen Hamas fighters.

It was a day of major victories for Hamas and its backers in Iran and Syria — and of devastating setbacks for the Western-backed Fatah. In one particularly humiliating scene, masked Hamas fighters marched agents of the once-feared Preventive Security Service out of their headquarters, arms raised in the air, stripped to the waist and ducking at the sound of a gunshot.

Abbas, of Fatah, fired the Hamas prime minister and said he would install a new government, replacing the Hamas-Fatah coalition formed just three months ago. Abbas' decrees won't reverse the Hamas takeover of Gaza. Instead, his moves will enable Fatah to consolidate its control over the West Bank, likely paving the way for two separate Palestinian governments.

Because Fatah has recognized Israel's right to exist and signed on to past peace agreements, the international community's boycott of the Palestinian territories in the wake of Hamas' electoral successes may no longer apply to the West Bank — just to Gaza. Some 2 million Palestinians live in the West Bank, while 1.4 million reside in Gaza.

Hamas' success has thrown into turmoil everything from Mideast peacemaking to Palestinian statehood to relations with Israel and the West.

"The era of justice and Islamic rule has arrived," Hamas spokesman Islam Shahawan said.[/q]



aside from the fact that, once again, the Iraq critics have been proven accurate once again -- greater regional instability -- what's interesting is what to do about the Islamist threat of more terrorism by Hamas, and what to do about those Palestinians yearning to breathe the sweet air of democracy.

i say we invade. what will happen if we don't? things will get worse, obviously, so we must invade. Al-Qaeda is gaining a foothold in Gaza and will be able to launch attacks directly into Israel. they'll soon have another stronghold in the Middle East, so they must be stopped.

how? invasion.

we've been told -- in here, and at every Republican debate -- that we must continue to occupy Iraq, indefinately, so that the terrorists don't have a new breeding ground like they did in post-Soviet Afghanistan. and things will only get worse if we leave. we must occupy places that are in danger of becoming terrorists states, lest we have to fight them in our streets instead of theirs. just listen to Giuliani! they want to kill us, all of us, because they hate our freedom. if we don't occupy any and all failed states which are sure to become new training camps for Al-Qaeda, then we will all die. and the West will die.

the lesson is: without dictators, or babysitting, all Muslim nations become failed states that breed terrorists. who want to kill blond american babies.

so on to Lebanon. we'll occupy.

and then a dealing with Iran. we know they train Shiite militias. we know they support Hamas.

so what do we do? bomb, invade, and occupy.

the bloodier it gets, the steelier our resolve must be. more troops. more bombs. more tanks. more planes. we need a draft. and to double military spending. for if we leave, it will get even worse than it is already getting. so we must occupy and expand an empire who only expands in order to be safer within it's borders.

or else the terrorists win.
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Old 06-14-2007, 05:20 PM   #2
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Re: Hamas Winning Civil War

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
aside from the fact that, once again, the Iraq critics have been proven accurate once again -- greater regional instability --

I think it's going a bit far to claim a causal link.
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Old 06-14-2007, 05:27 PM   #3
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Re: Re: Hamas Winning Civil War

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Originally posted by financeguy



I think it's going a bit far to claim a causal link.


truly, Iraq has become a model for the region.
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Old 06-14-2007, 05:46 PM   #4
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Seems like a very long bow to draw, the shifts in Palistinian society as well as Syrian interests in Lebanon predate the Iraq War. You seem to be blaming self determination and democracy for the very forces that would wipe it out for divine dictatorship.
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Old 06-14-2007, 05:53 PM   #5
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Israeli and American finger prints are all over this

Quote:
American pressure to favor Israel thwarted peace efforts
By Maggie Farley, Times Staff Writer
June 14, 2007

UNITED NATIONS — A former U.N. envoy to the Middle East warned in a confidential report made public Wednesday that the world body has allowed itself to be "pummeled into submission" by American pressure to favor Israel, damaging its role as an impartial mediator.

In an internal memo written last month before stepping down, Alvaro de Soto urged the United Nations to withdraw from the international "quartet" negotiating group, describing it as "a sideshow" in the efforts to reconcile Israel and the Palestinian Authority.

He lamented U.N. orders blocking him from talking to Syria and the Hamas-led Palestinian government in his peacemaking efforts, saying that the U.N. was the only neutral player that could talk to every party and its refusal to do so was undermining the process.

"We are not in the lead and the role we play is subsidiary at best, dangerous at worst," he wrote.

De Soto intended the 52-page "end of mission" report to be read only by the U.N. secretary-general and a few top officials who work on the Middle East portfolio, but it was leaked Tuesday to the Guardian newspaper in London. De Soto acknowledged Wednesday that he would not have been so candid had he known the report would become public.

"I intended my views to stimulate discussion, but had hoped it would be internal, not external," he said.

De Soto, a Peruvian, gained expertise in mediating tough agreements in a 25-year U.N. career that took him to El Salvador, Cyprus and the Western Sahara before his two years working in the Middle East peace process. He quit in May, discouraged that the U.N.'s deference to Washington and Israeli interests thwarted his efforts.

The U.N.'s Middle East peace process "has become strategically subservient to the U.S. policy in the broader Middle East, including Iraq and Iran," he wrote. He detailed a "heavy barrage" of pressure from Assistant Secretary of State David Welch and National Security Council official Elliot Abrams to isolate Hamas or face the possibility of the United States withholding its U.N. dues.

His frustration came through in clear and often colorful language, such as the comparison of his "handicapping" with the Black Knight whose legs and arms are sliced off by King Arthur's sword in "Monty Python and the Holy Grail."

De Soto criticized both Israel's recalcitrance and persistent Palestinian violence. He scolded the Hamas movement for advocating Israel's destruction, and accused Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, with the rival Fatah faction, of showing weak leadership.

He wrote that the economic sanctions imposed on the Palestinian government by the United States, European Union and Israel were shortsighted and had "devastating consequences" for the Palestinian people.

Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon said Wednesday that the report represented De Soto's "personal view," not the U.N.'s.

"I would not agree with his point that the quartet has become some kind of sideshow," he said, insisting that the group — Russia, the European Union, the United States and the United Nations — has become "re-energized." The group will meet June 26 and 27, along with representatives from the region.
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Old 06-14-2007, 05:58 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Seems like a very long bow to draw, the shifts in Palistinian society as well as Syrian interests in Lebanon predate the Iraq War. You seem to be blaming self determination and democracy for the very forces that would wipe it out for divine dictatorship.


hence, we must occupy.

occupy them all, i say.
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Old 06-14-2007, 06:03 PM   #7
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No, the point of occupying Iraq was to enable a transition to the sovereign Iraqi government and not to supress the people. If that was the end then why not leave the baathist structures in place and stick a new secular dictator in place?
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Old 06-14-2007, 06:05 PM   #8
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Good for Haliburton!

Good for America!


would you rather we had all these enlistees

taking out college loans they will just default on

this way their families have a good shot a becoming a "blue ribbon family"
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Old 06-14-2007, 06:08 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
why not leave the baathist structures in place and stick a new secular dictator in place?

bingo !!!


any rational evaluation of the situation

would have concluded this was the least bad solution
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Old 06-14-2007, 06:17 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
No, the point of occupying Iraq was to enable a transition to the sovereign Iraqi government and not to supress the people. If that was the end then why not leave the baathist structures in place and stick a new secular dictator in place?

no. the point of occupying Iraq was to prevent Saddam's WMDs to get in the hands of the terrorists.

and then the rationale shifted after that, but we continue to be told that Iraq is the centerpiece in the War on Terror. if we withdraw, the terrorists get stronger. they get a collapsed state from which to launch their dastardly deeds.
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Old 06-14-2007, 06:21 PM   #11
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PR changes but the argument in favour of fostering democracy in the middle east was not post hoc. Frankly I think that the cock ups in US foreign policy towards Iraq are consistent enough to make a case of governmental non-intervention.
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Old 06-14-2007, 06:22 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Frankly I think that the cock ups in US foreign policy towards Iraq are consistent enough to make a case of governmental non-intervention.


but isn't freedom not America's gift to the world, but God's gift to humanity?

who are you to deny Al-Qaeda, Hamas, and Hezbollah such gifts.

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Old 06-14-2007, 06:32 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




but isn't freedom not America's gift to the world, but God's gift to humanity?




yes,

While Bush was on his European Vacation I heard a speech where he said something like "Freedom and Democracy is a gift from the almighty"


and I though why is his thinking any more legit than when others claim to be carrying out the "will of their almighty"?


If carrying out the will of the almighty is legit then the only thing a sincere believer can do is "sacrifice" anything and everything.


Until the philosophy which hold one belief superior
And another
Inferior
Is finally
And permanently
Discredited
And abandoned -
Everywhere is war -
Me say war.
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Old 06-14-2007, 06:42 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




but isn't freedom not America's gift to the world, but God's gift to humanity?

who are you to deny Al-Qaeda, Hamas, and Hezbollah such gifts.

Freedom is individual sovereignty, it is killed by states and crushed by God.
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Old 06-14-2007, 08:45 PM   #15
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Iraq is indeed a model for the area........Bush's dream is coming true.
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