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Old 05-28-2006, 09:19 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram
deep, to be fair this story died down until Murtha started resurrecting it in the mainstream media in the last several weeks.

The only place I remember referring to it consistently over the last year was on leftist blogs.
here is an article from March, not a leftist blog


i posted it in this thread on march 21



and this thread Verte posted


and I have posted other stories where unarmed Iraqis have killed by coalition soldiers

and still many post "they are innocent until proven guilty"
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Old 05-28-2006, 09:21 PM   #17
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Re: Re: Re: Haditha Massacre

Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
The initial story was that the bomb and/or crossfire between insurgents and marines killed these people, I think that premeditated murder is much worse than that.
your view point is detached and bizarre to me.
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Old 05-28-2006, 09:22 PM   #18
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Re: Re: Re: Haditha Massacre

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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
The initial story was that the bomb and/or crossfire between insurgents and marines killed these people, I think that premeditated murder is much worse than that.
Oh yeah.
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Old 05-28-2006, 09:22 PM   #19
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Yes, but that incident occured in November and already in January, Time had the videos from the Iraqi student in their hands and how much did we hear about it?

I read a lot of different papers on a daily basis, including non-English ones out of Europe and this was not a well covered storyline. I am not surprised that people wouldn't have heard much about it.

Anyway, it seems more and more like we're talking about war crimes here and it would be a huge step forward if people would stand up and call them that. I'm not holding my breath.
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Old 05-29-2006, 01:22 AM   #20
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Haditha Massacre

Quote:
Originally posted by deep


your view point is detached and bizarre to me.
That point of view is the difference between collateral damage and war crime, it is the foundation of the rules of war - that deliberate damage should not be inflicted upon civilians.

Murdering 24 civilians warrants extremely harsh punishment (possibly execution) this is different than if there was a gun battle going on and militants were inside a building with civilians inside and the people inadvertently got caught in the crossfire or were deliberately placed there - provided the rules of engagement were followed.

I was not saying that one death is of greater magnitude than another, just that one situation is a crime to which there is a guilty party that should be held accountable.
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Old 05-31-2006, 08:44 AM   #21
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Shouldn't he have known about it long before that, and not from Time Magazine?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060531/...E0BHNlYwN0bWE-

"On Tuesday, White House spokesman Tony Snow said President Bush learned of the killings only after a reporter from Time magazine asked questions. Time published an article in March that said the Pentagon was investigating the incident.

Asked when Bush was first briefed about the events in Haditha, an insurgent stronghold in western Iraq, Snow replied Tuesday: "When a Time reporter first made the call."

Bush was briefed on the incident and investigation by his national security adviser, Stephen Hadley, Snow said. He would not detail Bush's personal involvement since.

"I think anybody who's heard the story has a personal interest and it's impossible not to," he said. "But the president also is allowing the chain of command to do what it's supposed to do in the Department of Defense, which is to complete an investigation. The Marines are taking an active and aggressive role in this."
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Old 05-31-2006, 12:09 PM   #22
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Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
Shouldn't he have known about it long before that, and not from Time Magazine?
There are two things to consider. First, given the number of variables in the world, the sheer volume of information on a daily basis, identifying what information should be delivered to the president at the time it occurs may differ from what information we deem should be delivered to a president 6 months later.

Second, such information must pass though several levels of command before getting to a decision maker for a daily presidential briefing. Given the changing nature of the information regarding the incident, it is not surprising this did not get sent up the chain right away.
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Old 05-31-2006, 01:29 PM   #23
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You mean to tell me that the Commander-in-Chief is finding out about a military scandal from Time magazine? That's a scandal in itself.
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Old 05-31-2006, 01:51 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by verte76
You mean to tell me that the Commander-in-Chief is finding out about a military scandal from Time magazine? That's a scandal in itself.
No, he is finding out about an incident from the press. Something that happens all the time.
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Old 05-31-2006, 02:19 PM   #25
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WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A preliminary military inquiry found evidence that U.S. Marines killed two dozen Iraqi civilians in an unprovoked attack in November, contradicting the troops' account, U.S. officials said on Wednesday.

Forensic evidence from corpses showed that victims had bullet wounds, despite the initial statements by Marines that the civilians were killed by a roadside bomb that also claimed the life of a soldier, a defense official said.

"The forensics painted a different story than what the Marines had said," said the official, speaking on condition of anonymity due to the sensitivity of the matter.

The official said the bodies had wounds that would not have been caused by an improvised explosive device.

President George W. Bush said on Wednesday there would be punishment if an investigation turns up evidence of wrongdoing by U.S. Marines in the killings in the Iraqi town of Haditha.

"I am troubled by the initial news stories," Bush said. "I am mindful there is a thorough investigation going on. If in fact laws were broken there will be punishment."

Residents of Haditha, 125 miles northwest of Baghdad in an area that has seen much activity by Sunni Arab insurgents, have told Reuters that U.S. Marines attacked houses and shot people after their patrol was hit by a roadside bomb.

It could be the worst known case of abuse by U.S. soldiers since the 2003 invasion and comes at a time when public opinion polls show falling U.S. public support for the war.

There are two investigations into the matter -- a criminal probe that might lead to murder charges against Marines and another investigation into whether Marines tried to cover up the true nature of the incident, officials said.

OTHER KILLINGS ALLEGED

The New York Times reported on Wednesday that the investigation in February and March led by Col. Gregory Watt, an Army officer in Baghdad, uncovered death certificates showing the Iraqis were shot mostly in the head and chest.

The three-week probe was the first official investigation into the killings.

In an interview with CNN, new Iraqi ambassador to the United States Samir al-Sumaidaie said there appeared to have been other killings of civilians by Marines in Haditha, where some of his family lives.

The ambassador said Marines shot and killed his cousin during a house-to-house search several months before the November incident.

"I believe he was killed intentionally. I believe that he was killed unnecessarily," al-Sumaidaie said.

He said three other unarmed youths were shot dead by Marines in a later incident in the area.

"They were in a car, they were unarmed, I believe, and they were shot."

Watt's investigation also reviewed cash payments totaling $38,000 made within weeks of the November shootings to families of victims, The New York Times said.

In an interview with the newspaper on Tuesday, Maj. Dana Hyatt said his superiors told him to compensate the relatives of 15 victims, but the other dead civilians had been determined to have committed hostile acts, leaving their families ineligible for compensation.

The U.S. military sometimes pays compensation to relatives of civilian victims.

On November 20, U.S. Marines spokesman Capt. Jeffrey Pool issued a statement saying that, on the previous day, a roadside bomb had killed 15 civilians and a Marine. In a later gun battle, U.S. and Iraqi troops had killed eight insurgents, he added.

U.S. military officials have since confirmed to Reuters that that version of the events of November 19 was wrong and that the 15 civilians were not killed by the blast but were shot dead.
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Old 06-02-2006, 02:14 AM   #26
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read this on the 28th

are they murdering, planting weapons and staging deaths?

Quote:
Marines Held in the Slaying of Iraqi Man
By Tony Perry
Times Staff Writer

May 28, 2006

OCEANSIDE — Several Marines are being held in the brig at Camp Pendleton and several more are restricted to the base pending an investigation in the slaying of a civilian in Iraq and a possible attempt to make him appear to have been an insurgent, Marine Corps officials said.

The inquiry in the April 26 killing in Hamandiya is separate from the investigation of the Nov. 19 slaying of 24 Iraqi civilians in Haditha.

But both cases involve the moral, legal and tactical issues of how to treat noncombatants in western Iraq, a complex and chaotic battleground patrolled by Marines.

"Like the commandant of the Marine Corps, Marines aboard Camp Pendleton are concerned regarding allegations emanating from Iraq," Maj. Gen. Richard Natonski, commanding general of the 1st Marine Division, which is based at Camp Pendleton, said in a statement Saturday.

"But we will continue to undergo our extensive training regimen in preparation for future deployments. The Marine Corps prides itself on its history and its demanding moral code."

Marine Commandant Gen. Michael Hagee is in Iraq to lecture Marines on the need to obey the Geneva Convention and other rules about humane treatment of noncombatants. He also plans to visit Camp Pendleton and other bases.

In the Haditha case, an investigation has concluded that Marines killed unarmed civilians, including women and children, in a house-to-house search conducted after an insurgent bomb killed a Marine and injured several others.

Some of the Marines could face murder charges, and others could be charged with dereliction of duty by assisting in a cover-up.

Photographs of the bodies taken by a Marine intelligence unit have convinced investigators that the civilians were defenseless and that some were killed "execution-style," officials close to investigation have said.

In the Hamandiya incident, an Iraqi was allegedly taken from his home and shot to death, officials said.

Troops may have planted an AK-47 and shovel near the body, Marines said, to make it appear that the man was an insurgent placing an improvised explosive device to detonate beneath a military vehicle.

The Marines were brought back from Iraq for the investigation.

Natonski took the unusual step of having some of the Marines kept in the brig "based on information [he] was privy to regarding alleged actions" of the Marines, the statement from the base said.

More than a dozen Marines with the 3rd Battalion, 5th Regiment are being investigated in the Hamandiya killing. A dozen with the 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment are under suspicion in the Haditha case.

Three or four of the latter, in what the military describes as a "fire team" led by a sergeant, are suspected of firing most of the fatal shots, said officials with knowledge of the investigation, who spoke on condition of anonymity. An Army general's administrative report on the Haditha incident is expected to be completed within days. No timetable has been announced for the Hamandiya investigation.

Marines spending their off-hours in the downtown area of this city beside Camp Pendleton said the incidents had already brought a renewed emphasis on what the Marines called "rules of engagement" in Iraq.

"They told us that they never want this stuff to ever happen again," said Pfc. Hunter Brunsvold, 18, of Mason City, Iowa.

Some Marines said they were told by noncommissioned officers to watch news accounts of the cases.

"Our first sergeant told us to go find out about these things so we know what not to do," said Pfc. Aaron McCune, 23, of Minneapolis.

Still, the Marines said, the public needs to understand the pressures of being on the front lines.

"I think it's unfortunate that Marines were driven to something like that," said Lance Cpl. Miles O'Reilly, 18, of Marin County. "It was out of line and they should be punished, but something must have frustrated them pretty badly to push them over the edge."

With nearly 300 of its Marines killed in Iraq, Camp Pendleton has had more personnel killed there than any other U.S. military base. The Marines being trained for Iraq in the infantry school at Camp Pendleton said they were taught about the Geneva Convention but were also warned that knowing friend from foe in Iraq was difficult.

"The Geneva Convention doesn't really exist over there; we're dealing with terrorists, not an army," said Navy corpsman Ken Pierson, 20, of Milwaukee.

Sgt. Jeremy Herndon, 26, of Christmas Valley, Ore., who has done two tours in Iraq, said he believed the frustration came from fighting "an unseen enemy" that killed by planting roadside bombs and sometimes hid among women and children.

"Some guys get a little too eager," Herndon said. "It's not right and it's not professional, but it happens."
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Old 06-02-2006, 02:43 AM   #27
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The way people can be so blase about all aspects of this tragedy is alarming and disgusting. All the more reason for people to be utterly sickened that individuals such as Bush have the power and authority to wage these wars, and that there are countless members of the public who keep voting him in.
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Old 06-02-2006, 10:02 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
The way people can be so blase about all aspects of this tragedy is alarming and disgusting. All the more reason for people to be utterly sickened that individuals such as Bush have the power and authority to wage these wars, and that there are countless members of the public who keep voting him in.


yes, but, you see, Saddam Hussein broke UN resolutions! that justifies EVERYTHING.
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Old 06-02-2006, 11:19 AM   #29
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"The Geneva Convention doesn't really exist over there; we're dealing with terrorists, not an army," said Navy corpsman Ken Pierson, 20, of Milwaukee.
Yeah, terrorists like the 19 women and children that got slaughtered.

It's high time people started realizing that in a war, nobody gives a shit about the civilians. We support the troops and buy the stickers and rail against the terrorists and nobody cares that the civilians have no choice in the matter at all. Like lambs to the slaughter.
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Old 06-02-2006, 03:16 PM   #30
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[q]New 'Iraq massacre' tape emerges


The BBC has uncovered new video evidence that US forces may have been responsible for the deliberate killing of 11 innocent Iraqi civilians.

The video appears to challenge the US military's account of events that took place in the town of Ishaqi in March.

The US said at the time four people died during a military operation, but Iraqi police claimed that US troops had deliberately shot the 11 people.

A spokesman for US forces in Iraq told the BBC an inquiry was under way.

The new evidence comes in the wake of the alleged massacre in Haditha, where US marines are suspected of killing up to 24 Iraqi civilians in November 2005 and covering up the deaths.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/5039420.stm

[/q]



tip of an iceberg?

what else do we expect when our leaders condone torture and facilitate its practice?
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