had enough of romantic love?

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Irvine511

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next week begins the dreaded month of february. for those of us in the northeast, it means 6 more weeks of cold and snow, 6 more weeks of darkness, the Holidays are far behind us, and no vacation days (excluding president's day) until Memorial Day. February is also home to that pernicious, Hallmark Holiday we call Valentine's Day. with all this in mind, i pose this question to the FYM: is romance a hoax?

does it really exist, or do we try to will it into existence because we are saturated with tales of love and romance in everything from Friends to Usher to Jane Austin.

here's a hypothesis: romantic love is a secular cult.

as almost anyon before the 19th century would have told you: the concept is a crock.

Aristotle, paraphrased: it's a benighted attempt to found friendship on beauty.

Montaigne: "impetuous and fickle, a feverish flame."

Shakespeare: "Romeo and Juliet," begins with Romeo's obsessive infatuation withRosalind; then Romeo meets Juliet, and Rosalind isn't even worth an email. Love is like that, Shakespeare seems to imply. It comes; it goes. If taken too seriously, it kills.

let's then compare romantic love with true friendship or parent-child love -- the comparison renders romance a joke of a feeling. yet this joke, as Celine Dion and Josh Grobin tell us, is the secret to happiness.

let's look at societal changes. greater sex equality has (mostly) discredited the idea that no woman is complete without a man. Clinton had a marriage that, whatever else it was founded on, had little to do with romance.

but still, romance is relentlessly sold to us. Britney clones go on dates in kindergarten. boy bands parade as romantic fantasies for a new generation of screaming girls. the political quest for equal marriage rights for homosexuals merges into a cultural campaign for gay romance. the essence of romantic love is not the company of a lover but the pursuit of one. all anticipation, no delivery. the disappointment of having waited 16 years for a new Star Wars movie that turns out to be "The Phantom Menace."

maybe these mixed messages -- mixed messages in American culture! shocking, i know -- have something to do with our divorce rate: excessive expectations, driven by popular culture.

yes, i'm sure for a lucky few, infatuation sometimes does lead to lasting love, and love to family, and family to all the other virtues our preachers and politicians regularly celebrate. For many others, relationships are useful economic bargains and, hopefully, successful sexual transactions, and this tyranny of romantic expectations engenders not warm fuzzy feelings on Valentines Day, but depression, maybe jealousy, loneliness, and a sense of failure at something apparently very important.

the love celebrated on Valentine's Day conquers nothing. it contains neither the friendship nor civility that makes marriage successful. it's a drug -- requiring new infusions to sustain the high. it prettifies sex, but doesn't remove sex's danger or lust. and by elevating it to a personal panacea, we suffer the permanent disappointment of unmet expectations.

let's celebrate, instead of romance, the affection, caring, friendship, the small favors of a husband for a wife, and vice versa, after 30 years of marriage. by knocking romance off its Hallmark pedestal, we might go some small way to restoring the importance and dignity of these less glamorous but more fulfilling relationships.

Noel Coward: "If love were all, I should be lonely."



or maybe i'm pissed that i'm single this February.
 
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I have been said not to be romantic by the women of my life in the years. I do not think I understand romance or at least I do not like to give a red rose and eat with candle under a star sky for love to be on the table. I love to be in love and yearn to be loved but for the real not for the tiny moments. Also though i need to be sexed.

Your writings are very thoughful and interesting Irvine511 and I am not sure what is the connection between the sex and the love. Maybe there is no natural connection. You can love without sex and sex without love.
 
I used to think it existed and everyone would have it, but yeah, I was wrong :|
 
Angela Harlem said:
Dont mind my bitterness either, sorry :wink:


this thread might just be the place for the bitter.

i have two sources of bitterness -- one moved to Florida, the other was a swarthy venezuelan with big-time mother issues who became too much to handle.
 
I'm very much in love right now, so I do think that "romantic love" is possible, while still being realistic. But I will admit that it can be difficult to find, if you aren't in the right mindset.

I think the biggest obstacle to maintaining those feelings is how people perceive reality. A lot of people think a relationship is getting a lot of material presents, and (at least as portrayed in media with women) if the boyfriend doesn't buy "the right gift" the girl gets all pissy. Then, she wants thousands of dollars spent on a wedding so she can be a "princess."

What does any of this materialism have to do with love? If it were really about love, the women in media should be happy with a $5 wedding, if that's all they could reasonably afford.

Romance isn't a hoax; I just wonder how many people know what it truly is.

Melon
 
I married the right woman.....I just keep tying a bow to myself every Valentines Day and say honey.....

here I am


hehehehe
 
Geez Dread, how could she say no?
:faint:

Venezuelan with mother issues? :lol: You poor thing :hug:

FYM doesn't need to hear my bitterness :D I'll spare youse all.
 
Angela Harlem said:
Venezuelan with mother issues? :lol: You poor thing :hug:



funny story: his mother had recently moved from Caracas to St. Petersburg, FL. every Sunday morning, she would go to a big, predominantly African-American Baptist church (even though she was Catholic) to hear the gospel music. every single sunday, the answering machine would pick up a phone call from his mother -- we'd get a blast of gospel music because she was holding the phone aloft in church, clapping and singing along.


ah, memories. funny, yet sad.
 
I think the only reason for romantic love is because it makes 2 people feel good about themselves
which is very excellent really
 
I don't think romance has anything to do w/ grand gestures. The most romantic thing a guy ever did for me was get me an autograph of a basketball player. It was just so sweet and unexpected, and thoughtful. I had a real crush on this guy and maybe he liked me too, but nothing ever came of it. See, I've lead a very exciting romantic life :wink:

I think romance is all about little things that really aren't so little, and about someone truly accepting you for who you are. But I know nothing about it anyway :shrug:

I'd rather have true friendship w/ a guy than romance, not that those are mutually exclusive

I do think peoples' expectations are so unrealistic. It's like that line "you complete me" I think ultimately we all have to complete ourselves and not expect that from someone else.
 
My last relationship was a disaster. The guy was trying to pressure me into marriage when he barely knew me. He was a drunk and verbally abusive and would never admit to any mistakes. Now I'm afraid of a relationship, so yeah, I've had enough of "romance".
 
I know it exists. And I'm pretty sure it will never happen to me. I keep hoping, but my bitterness is rapidly killing it off.

On the other hand, most people I see who are in relationships are those melon described--all about the appearence of love, participating in a sham because "its what everyone else is doing."
They *have* to be with a boyfriend or girlfriend, not because they have connected with them on a deeper level, but out of social pressure. It's a possession, like a cell phone. What's disturbing is how many children and marriages I've seen come out of such phony pairings.
 
I believe in romantic love, yes...though, if you've been with someone for over 13 years, and now have a couple kids, it usually transforms into something like "perpetual great fondness and appreciation"...which, you know, is also pretty great.
 
I think there's a huge difference between attraction and love, and that romance can be a part of either (or not) depending on the two people. Personally, it took my husband and I a long time to get over the attraction thing, and that's when we found each other. Romance is something that doesn't cross his mind, but he now brings me flowers every so often, which I love. On the other hand I don't subscribe to the idea that everyone else needs to see him taking me out on Valentines Day. In fact, I find going out on that day to be extremely unromantic. But, my parents, still give each other cards and my Dad usually does something romantic for my Mom (he's more romantic than she is) and they've been married for forty-seven years (which doesn't mean they don't argue).
I once had a discussion with my husband where I said "you know how there are certain fantasies that turn you on? Well, there are certain romantic things you can do that have the same effect on me." That's when he really understood what I meant.
 
Four years in a commited hasn't been enough for me. So tomarrow, I'm proposing. Not kidding.
 
Angela Harlem said:
If you really want to know if it exists, find what you think it is and then lose it. There's your answer.
:|

yes, I can whole-heartedly support this statement. AND to add even more to it, lose it and know that it's all your fault that it's gone.
 
It's funny how our perceptions and opinions of romance get altered after/during every relationship we have. My last relationship lasted about eleven months, and it was a unique relationship. Unique in that it was an internet relationship, and we never met once. We weren't that close to each other geographically. We had a lot in common and we really liked each other a lot. And we mistook that for love, which in turn made it easy for both of us to look past some glaring and obvious differences between us. Late in the relationship, we kept coming back to those differences more and more often(and they had to do with political beliefs and life goals) and eventually we agreed to end it, and we did it like a band-aid. And the thing is, I was much more relieved than I was bummed or sad or whatever. The truth is, there's only so much romance you can have on the interent, and there was none in the last two months of that relationship. Why? Because romance isn't about words, it's about gestures. Furthermore, it's about subtle gestures. It has to be in order to be successful. If you need big grand romantic gestures from your signficant other in order to be satisfied or content or what have you, the relationship probably isn't a good one.

Frankly, I want more to find a person that I feel comfortable and natural with, and that I don't NEED to put forth big romantic gestures...I'm not doing a good job of explaining this. Ok...picture this: Being able to sit around with the person in pajamas, either in the middle of the night or early in the morning, and just talk, play a game, watch a movie, have a drink, enjoy each other's company, kill time. Don't have to censor what you say, don't need any gestures, don't need any movie-romance-sparks, don't need any big events. Just need the company.

That, to me, is far more valuable than any big romantic gesture.
 
Macfistowannabe said:
Four years in a commited hasn't been enough for me. So tomarrow, I'm proposing. Not kidding.

Ask permission from Daddy first.....
 
namkcuR said:
Frankly, I want more to find a person that I feel comfortable and natural with, and that I don't NEED to put forth big romantic gestures...I'm not doing a good job of explaining this. Ok...picture this: Being able to sit around with the person in pajamas, either in the middle of the night or early in the morning, and just talk, play a game, watch a movie, have a drink, enjoy each other's company, kill time. Don't have to censor what you say, don't need any gestures, don't need any movie-romance-sparks, don't need any big events. Just need the company.

It's 1pm on Saturday and that's exactly what the boy and I are doing right now.

Oh and Dread is right -- ask Daddy first. It seems totally way traditional but your girl will appreciate the fact that you respect her family.

As for romance, I'll have to post another thread as it gets closer but I hate Valentine's Day. Hate it. If you love someone, you shouldn't need an excuse like a holiday to tell them you love them. We may go overboard this year and order pizza or something but other than that, screw it. It's nice to get notes and flowers for no reason. And while jewelry is more from the wallet, a card is more from the heart. Which one is better?
 
I believe in love and one day everyone will find true romantic love.
Also, sex is very different when you are truly in love. Its kinda like an electrical storm.:heart: :heart: :love:
 
namkcuR said:
It's funny how our perceptions and opinions of romance get altered after/during every relationship we have. My last relationship lasted about eleven months, and it was a unique relationship. Unique in that it was an internet relationship, and we never met once. We weren't that close to each other geographically. We had a lot in common and we really liked each other a lot. And we mistook that for love, which in turn made it easy for both of us to look past some glaring and obvious differences between us. Late in the relationship, we kept coming back to those differences more and more often(and they had to do with political beliefs and life goals) and eventually we agreed to end it, and we did it like a band-aid. And the thing is, I was much more relieved than I was bummed or sad or whatever. The truth is, there's only so much romance you can have on the interent, and there was none in the last two months of that relationship. Why? Because romance isn't about words, it's about gestures. Furthermore, it's about subtle gestures. It has to be in order to be successful. If you need big grand romantic gestures from your signficant other in order to be satisfied or content or what have you, the relationship probably isn't a good one.

Frankly, I want more to find a person that I feel comfortable and natural with, and that I don't NEED to put forth big romantic gestures...I'm not doing a good job of explaining this. Ok...picture this: Being able to sit around with the person in pajamas, either in the middle of the night or early in the morning, and just talk, play a game, watch a movie, have a drink, enjoy each other's company, kill time. Don't have to censor what you say, don't need any gestures, don't need any movie-romance-sparks, don't need any big events. Just need the company.

That, to me, is far more valuable than any big romantic gesture.

I thought I was experiencing an internet relationship myself, and was looking forward to making it real. As my luck would have it, the first time in a very long time I was ready to meet someone new - it would have to be that the someone that I was interested in really didn't want a relationship. :( I do think we had political beliefs & life goals in common - which is what attracted me in the first place.

So, to answer the question "have I had enough of of romantic love" I would say it that for me, it would be wonderful to experience that again after so many years.

I think being comfortable with each other is the most important thing, but if that is the case - wouldn't if be easy to make big romantic gestures? I married my ex in process because we were comfortable together, or so I thought. I think the key is to have the romantic beginning merge seemlessly into comfort zone. :)
 
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