Habeas Corpus, R.I.P. (1215 - 2006) by Molly Ivins - Page 3 - U2 Feedback

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Old 10-03-2006, 07:57 PM   #31
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Originally posted by melon


Wonderful. So if you're visiting a foreign country and get arrested, you're entitled to get locked up with no recourse?

Such a great precedent that sets.

Melon
I'm not saying that at all - what I am saying is that Consitutional Rights are extended only to citizens.

Other laws and regulations may apply to non-citizens - but not the US Constitution.
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Old 10-03-2006, 07:58 PM   #32
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Other laws and regulations may apply to non-citizens
Apparently not under the Bush Doctrine.

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Old 10-03-2006, 08:02 PM   #33
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I'm not saying that at all - what I am saying is that Consitutional Rights are extended only to citizens.

Other laws and regulations may apply to non-citizens - but not the US Constitution.
But you don't want that either, just look at your earlier post.
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Old 10-03-2006, 08:08 PM   #34
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i find it appaling that the current administration in the US has been able to drag your country to the point that you have started wondering if curtailing your civil liberties is worth stopping terrorism. lets get some perspective. there has been one (1) attack on US soil since THE BRITISH ARMY left. one terrorist attack, albeit significant in impact, but still, only one. many countries around the world, in europe, middle east, asia had to live with terrorism for a long time. reading some of the posts, one could think you are living in iraq and have to deal with terrorist bombings all the time. it is amazing how terrorized some people have become.
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Old 10-03-2006, 08:15 PM   #35
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Originally posted by all_i_want
i find it appaling that the current administration in the US has been able to drag your country to the point that you have started wondering if curtailing your civil liberties is worth stopping terrorism. lets get some perspective. there has been one (1) attack on US soil since THE BRITISH ARMY left. one terrorist attack, albeit significant in impact, but still, only one. many countries around the world, in europe, middle east, asia had to live with terrorism for a long time. reading some of the posts, one could think you are living in iraq and have to deal with terrorist bombings all the time. it is amazing how terrorized some people have become.
How many attacks do you feel are necessary before a country attempts to defend itself from further terrorism? 15? 50?

What if 1 attack killed 300,000 instead of only 3,000 - would that be enough justification to defend against further terrorism?
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Old 10-03-2006, 08:39 PM   #36
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oooh let's bring back conscription while we're at it! sounds good to me!
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Old 10-03-2006, 08:41 PM   #37
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Originally posted by AEON


How many attacks do you feel are necessary before a country attempts to defend itself from further terrorism? 15? 50?

What if 1 attack killed 300,000 instead of only 3,000 - would that be enough justification to defend against further terrorism?
Where did this poster state not to defend this country? Where?
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Old 10-03-2006, 08:57 PM   #38
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Those of you who are OK with this because you like/trust Bush need to ask yourselves if you also trust every admin that will come after him.

Power does not check itself. Never has, never will.
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Old 10-03-2006, 08:58 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON
How many attacks do you feel are necessary before a country attempts to defend itself from further terrorism? 15? 50?

What if 1 attack killed 300,000 instead of only 3,000 - would that be enough justification to defend against further terrorism?
All of this reminds me too much of the Ministry of Peace.

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Old 10-03-2006, 10:37 PM   #40
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Originally posted by melon


All of this reminds me too much of the Ministry of Peace.

Melon
I watched Terry Gilliam's 'Brazil' again for the first time since 9/11.

The Ministry of Information.
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Old 10-03-2006, 11:10 PM   #41
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Originally posted by Sherry Darling
Those of you who are OK with this because you like/trust Bush need to ask yourselves if you also trust every admin that will come after him.

Power does not check itself. Never has, never will.
Actually a very good point that both sides of this polarizing issue (sad it's come to that isn't it?) should remind themselves of.

Here's my quickee answer,.

Ronald Reagan-- Liberals feared his finger on "the button" would surely cause an apocalyptic holocaust. Guess they were wrong?

Bush I-- Conservatives feared his "New World Order and black helicopters." Funny, you don't hear much about that anymore. Wrong.

Clinton--He and Janet Reno were going to take away our guns and burn down churches like they did in Waco. Both my gun and church are still around. Wrong

Bush II--Habeas Corpus, R.I.P. (1215 - 2006) with some domestic spying and torture thrown in for good measure. With 2 remaining years to further "trash" the constitution.

See where I'm going with this? Hysterics and hyperbole rarely withstand the scrutiny of time. How'd you suppose history will reflect on this argument?
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Old 10-03-2006, 11:18 PM   #42
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So because it hasn't happened yet, no need to worry?

There's some logic for ya...
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Old 10-04-2006, 07:39 AM   #43
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1. a slippery question -- i vote for the loss of constitutional rights combined with the increased power in the hands of the executive branch; we are all far, far more likely to be killed in an automobile accident than to be killed by terrorists. i can understand, to an extent, a loss of certain kinds of privacy and increased surveillance, but i cannot understand the executive looking for the right to torture and to determine who is, in his own personal judgement, who is and who is not worthy of being detained and then, by extention, tortured. the caveat is, were another terrorist attack to happen on US soil, what that might drive this particular administration to do (since their actions have definitively made us less safe, according to the current NIE) and if that might necessitate the further erosion of civil liberties, the invasion of yet another country, fiscal disaster since there's no money left to pay for said invasion, and the reinstatement of the draft so that we have enough soldiers.

2. it depends on who's in charge -- far, far, far more Iraqis have died than Americans died on 9-11, and soon the number of American troops who have died in Iraq will supass the number on 9-11.
So your main concern is with the expansion of the executive branch under the guise of wartime powers. Let's say you're completely right and put aside the question of the War on Terror for a moment.
Do you see a higher and higher tax burden as an issue of economic liberty?
Do you worry when the judicial branch bypasses the democratic process when they "make" law?
Do you think about smokers and civil liberties in 2006?
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Old 10-04-2006, 08:20 AM   #44
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So your main concern is with the expansion of the executive branch under the guise of wartime powers. Let's say you're completely right and put aside the question of the War on Terror for a moment.
The definition of "war," which is specifically defined under the Constitution, has become so broad as to be meaningless. As such, you could say that we're constantly "at war," and that the executive power has the permanent right to disregard the separation of powers--running contrary to the idea of the democracy.

Of course, the Roman Empire existed for centuries under the guise that it had to suspend the Roman Republic to preserve it, but after enough decades had passed, it could continue to act with impunity, because no one could remember a time when there wasn't an emperor.

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Do you see a higher and higher tax burden as an issue of economic liberty?
You see, though, compared to every other industrialized nation, our tax burden is not high at all. As I see it, it is continuing bullshit perpetrated by the GOP to have a scapegoat for the fact that corporations are not doing their part: paying good wages. So, instead of saying that the working class isn't being paid enough, the GOP blames your poverty all on taxes, without having to ever substantiate its claim. Then it substantially lowers taxes for its wealthy campaign contributors, while throwing you a 1-2% supposed tax decrease just so they can create a misleading campaign ad. I say "supposed," because my payroll taxes certainly don't look like they've gone down at all.

And we wonder why our national debt is so high?

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Do you worry when the judicial branch bypasses the democratic process when they "make" law?
Those who make these claims are unfamiliar with the judicial process.

Quote:
Do you think about smokers and civil liberties in 2006?
Do you think about drug addicts and civil liberties in 2006? It is an established right of the FDA to ban harmful substances, and the fact that tobacco has been immune from this for decades has been nothing but politics.

Melon
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Old 10-04-2006, 08:33 AM   #45
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Do you think about drug addicts and civil liberties in 2006? It is an established right of the FDA to ban harmful substances, and the fact that tobacco has been immune from this for decades has been nothing but politics.
Yes I do and the right to control your mind is important and the substances that go into it should be your choice, nothing should be immune from this even if it can kill you.
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