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Old 01-13-2005, 09:43 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
Interesting...but no where in the article is he quoted as saying you have to be a Christian......

he says "the Lord" -- it's obviously Jesus. if he meant God, he'd have said God.
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Old 01-13-2005, 10:03 AM   #32
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Irvine, you're missing the obvious. I'm sorry.

You said: "he isn't simply saying that he doesn't see how he could have endured the presidency without faith; he is asserting that he cannot see how anyone could be president without a "relationship with the Lord."

Exactly. You're defeating your own argument. Both sentences there of yours are basically saying the same thing.
The rest of us are seeing the last sentence of your quote there as Bush "simply saying that he doesn't see how he could have endured the presidency without faith," you see?
He's not linking the office of the president to religious faith. He's saying his own opinion. Nowhere does he say president of the U.S. should always be Christian.
Also, nowhere in the post of mine that you copied did I say God. I said Christ, which is Jesus. (and, of course, God, but I see what you're trying to say.)
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Old 01-13-2005, 10:08 AM   #33
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He was possibly trying to say (giving the benefit of the doubt) that without God in his life he would return to alcohol under the pressures of the presidency.
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Old 01-13-2005, 10:14 AM   #34
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I don't know about the alcohol thing. But he's just saying that he personally could not do the job of president without the support of his own personal faith, and all of that implies. He's talking about his life, not the office of the presidency. I don't think he's saying you have to be Christian at all. Hell, he has both Jews and Muslims in his administration. Many of those controversial neo-con civilians in the Defense Department, who carry alot of weight in this Administration, are Jewish. If he had any problems with members of other faiths he would not have appointed these people and wouldn't be able to work with them.
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Old 01-13-2005, 10:34 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen

Exactly. You're defeating your own argument. Both sentences there of yours are basically saying the same thing.
The rest of us are seeing the last sentence of your quote there as Bush "simply saying that he doesn't see how he could have endured the presidency without faith," you see?
He's not linking the office of the president to religious faith. He's saying his own opinion. Nowhere does he say president of the U.S. should always be Christian.
Also, nowhere in the post of mine that you copied did I say God. I said Christ, which is Jesus. (and, of course, God, but I see what you're trying to say.)

i'm not giving up on this one!

the sentences are saying two different things. he even uses the phrase, after he says how freedom of religion and freedom from religion are good things, "ON THE OTHER HAND ..."

that indicates a contrast.

Bush is explicitly qualifying his defense of religious freedom (or the freedom to have no religion at all) by saying that the presidency, in his view, should nevertheless be reserved for people with a relationship of a personal nature with "the Lord." he isn't simply saying that he doesn't see how he could have endured the presidency without faith; he is asserting that he cannot see how anyone could be president without a "relationship with the Lord." and by "the Lord," as you agree, he means Christ.

don't see what i'm missing here.
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Old 01-13-2005, 10:39 AM   #36
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maybe everyone else sees this as just a projection of his own experience with nothing more to be inferred from it. grammatically -- and we know that's not this president's strongest suit -- it should be inferred by the contrasting statement "on the other hand."

however, as i've said, given how this administration has fused church and state with federal funds, using religious groups as its political base, incorporating religious leaders into policy-making, and defending public policy decisions on purely religious grounds (calling civil marriage licenses "sacred," for example), i think this was another one of his not-so-coded verbal hand-outs to the religious right.

remember when he made the Dread Scott comparison in the 2nd debate and no one knew what the f he was talking about? and then we realized that anti-choice people view the fetus as a human, and make the argument that we're treating the fetus as 3/5ths of a human like the Dread Scott case affirmed that, yes, an African-American was only 3/5ths of a white person?

that's what i think is going on here.

but i'll fully admit to being very, very suspicious of GWB.
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Old 01-13-2005, 10:46 AM   #37
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I am not a supporter of George Bush. I voted for Gore in 2000 and Kerry in 2004. I know he uses religious arguments for alot of his policies, gay marriage for example. I don't agree with this stuff. I still don't think, in these statements, that he's claiming that you've got to be Christian to be president. He's saying *he* couldn't do it without his faith, and that's fine with me.
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Old 01-13-2005, 10:49 AM   #38
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No offense Irvine , but given that you're suspicious of him, maybe you can be prone to reading things into what he says that aren't necessarily there

I'm not denying that the way he uses religion can be inappropriate, but I agree w/ verte.

I think it was a very valid point, the one that was brought up about what if you just inserted Allah, etc.
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Old 01-13-2005, 10:51 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen


I think it was a very valid point, the one that was brought up about what if you just inserted Allah, etc.

of course no offense taken.

but if he had said Allah, Shiva, Yahweh, or Zeus, along with the statement ANYONE which was preceeded by the contrasting statement ON THE OTHER HAND, i'd say the same thing.

and if he had made the same quote, only with the atheist example i gave earlier, then religious leaders across the land would be up in arms.
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Old 01-13-2005, 11:38 AM   #40
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I've gone back and forth on this while following this thread today, but I'm inclined to agree with Irvine here. In fact, earlier I was going to write the exact same thing about the use of the phrase "on the other hand". If all he's talking about is his own experiences, the preceding bit about religious freedom is completely irrelevant. Why would any contrast exist between the two ideas?

Plus, he doesn't say "I don't see how I could be President ...." He says, "I don't see how you can be President." So it's more than fair to question if he's talking about himself or not.
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Old 01-13-2005, 11:43 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by strannix
he doesn't say "I don't see how I could be President ...." He says, "I don't see how you can be President." So it's more than fair to question if he's talking about himself or not.
If this were a written statement or part of a delivered speech, I could understand your argument. But when it's just part of an interview, I don't think this grammatical evaluation is relevant. When speaking off the cuff, we all mix pronouns, don't literally say what we're intending, and generally mess up our wording.

After all, this is W we're talking about.
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Old 01-13-2005, 11:48 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by stammer476


If this were a written statement or part of a delivered speech, I could understand your argument. But when it's just part of an interview, I don't think this grammatical evaluation is relevant. When speaking off the cuff, we all mix pronouns, don't literally say what we're intending, and generally mess up our wording.

After all, this is W we're talking about.
I agree. In all honesty I think George does believe you can't be president without "the Lord". But at this point I really don't care what he says in an interview. I mean he's a born-again Christian he has some very distorted views even about Christianity. I'm not surprised by the statement but I don't find it all that damning.
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Old 01-13-2005, 12:04 PM   #43
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Originally posted by stammer476


When speaking off the cuff, we all mix pronouns, don't literally say what we're intending, and generally mess up our wording.

After all, this is W we're talking about.
Yeah, the Lord knows you're right on that.

I certainly don't want to sound definitive. There's really no way to know. I'm just saying that Irvine's interpretation seems more likely to me, given the words on the page.
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Old 01-13-2005, 12:21 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511



he says "the Lord" -- it's obviously Jesus. if he meant God, he'd have said God.
Interesting....Lord to me is God.....
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Old 01-13-2005, 12:22 PM   #45
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Originally posted by Do Miss America


I agree. In all honesty I think George does believe you can't be president without "the Lord". But at this point I really don't care what he says in an interview. I mean he's a born-again Christian he has some very distorted views even about Christianity. I'm not surprised by the statement but I don't find it all that damning.
Born again Christians have distorted Christianity?
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