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Old 05-27-2005, 04:30 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonosSaint

Yeah. I'm a cynic. Scratch a cynic and underneath you find a frustrated idealist.
brilliant.

excellent post.
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Old 05-28-2005, 04:35 AM   #62
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Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase

i have a hard time not seeing the politics behind AI's slamming the United States 100 times more than any other country, when there are systamatic rapings, beheadings and other atrocities going on throughout other parts of the world.

I'm troubled by the camp at Guantanamo... don't get me wrong. But I just don't see a better solution. If you have one, I'd love to hear it. Complaining about it and not providing a better solution is useless.
AI is not slamming the US any more than any other country doing wrong. How you come to that opinion? Look at their site and at their reports of human rights abuses before of making such unbalanced statements, please.

I´m troubled by the camp, same like you. I got a better solution, AI also got a better soluton. No one is saying let´em terrorists run free. But people have died in Guantanamo - since they were held without trial, no one can say who they were, what they did. I don´t know anything about who is held there and for which specific reason.

Imo a good solution would be

1. to keep them only if its clear they are terrorists
2. not to torture the prisoners
3. allowing fair trials, controlled by NGOs
4. not flush prisoner´s heads in the toilet

The current way of doing raises suspicions for every civilian. With this procedure, theoretically it could happen to ME. That´s what bothers me most. Theoretically, agents could knock at MY door in the night, take me to Guantanamo and slowly kill me there. And spread in the media that I was a terrorist.

How can you guarantee that doesn´t happen? You can´t. And that´s the point.
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Old 05-28-2005, 07:04 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars


AI is not slamming the US any more than any other country doing wrong. How you come to that opinion? Look at their site and at their reports of human rights abuses before of making such unbalanced statements, please.

Sorry to keep coming back to this, but I feel strongly about Amnesty because I am personally invested in AI. There are many, many places in the world that AI "keeps an eye" on. Amnesty is concerned about human rights abuses all over the world, and recognizes that no one's human rights are safe when anyone's are in jeopardy.

So many U2 fans at these concerts, and I went over to the Amnesty booth at both of the Philly concerts...and the petitions they had (which had nothing to do with GITMO--one was for an Uzbek law professor, one was for Aung San Suu Kyi as U2 has "adopted" her, and I think one was for the women of Juarez in Mexico who have been routinely kidnapped, assaulted and raped) reflected the sad state of human rights all over the world. And they had been signed by so few people--maybe a couple of dozen.

AI is NOT an anti-American organization. AI is anti-torture, anti-tyranny, anti-death penalty. Again, as hiphop said, I invite you to peruse

www.amnesty.org

and then ask yourself if you still sincerely believe AI "singles out" the States.
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Old 05-28-2005, 08:15 PM   #64
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Even though I agree with you Pax, regarding AI not being an anti-American organisation, there are reasons why there were no petitions at the U2 shows regarding American cases. It's one of the main rules of being an Amnesty member that you do not take action, in the name of AI, against abuses in your own country. Therefore all the petitions would have been, or should have been, on issues outside of the States. Just want to make that clear although I, again, do strongly agree with you.



btw, i'm not American, I'm Scottish and live in Scotland (UK) so I have no patriotic reason to have to attack this claim that AI is anti-american.
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Old 05-28-2005, 08:26 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonosSaint
I'm not inclined to compare what we do to what someone else does. I would not have made a comparison to a Gulag or to a Nazi concentration camp. We do not reach that level. I think such arguments are simplistic. That being said, I believe as the leader of the free world (for now), our behavior should be above reproach.

I look at what we sometimes do and it is gratuitous to me, for no purpose other than humiliation. I'm not naive, but I want to better than this. What purpose did they really think all this would serve? Was there really much belief that we would get enough information from these people to justify all this? How high level are these prisoners? How much information can they have?
Some of the very first people accused of abuse come from my home. Not only do they represent my country, they represent my part of the country. I've got a dog in this hunt. How do I defend this behavior? How do you? "It's not as bad as...." doesn't cut it for me. That smacks to me of moral relativism.
Yeah.

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Originally posted by BonosSaint

We are not beyond reproach. But if a country sets itself up as a beacon of freedom, human rights, then it damn well better behave in that manner. I am terribly concerned with what my country does. I would like to proud of it again.
What BonosSaint said.

Quote:
Originally posted by BonosSaint

Yeah. I'm a cynic. Scratch a cynic and underneath you find a frustrated idealist

You and me, baby.
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Old 05-28-2005, 08:33 PM   #66
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I remember, very clearly, sitting there on 9/11, watching CNN, seeing it all happen, and thinking, literally, "Why couldn't this have happened when we still had Clinton? Why did this have to happen with a Texas Republican in the White House?" The only thing that could have possibly made that day worse....and it did.

It's going to take us years to repair the damage done to civil liberties in this country....and we won't even be able to begin until we get rid of Georgy Jr.

Somehow I am not the least bit surprised that American treatment of prisoners is under question at this time, under this administration.

I wish my country was half as good as it likes to think it is.

And I wish we could refrain from defensively jumping down the throat of anyone who questions our behavior, our policies, our actions on the global stage, (ie., what else would you expect of AI; 'Freedom Fries', et al.)
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Old 05-28-2005, 08:37 PM   #67
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Originally posted by ewen
Even though I agree with you Pax, regarding AI not being an anti-American organisation, there are reasons why there were no petitions at the U2 shows regarding American cases. It's one of the main rules of being an Amnesty member that you do not take action, in the name of AI, against abuses in your own country. Therefore all the petitions would have been, or should have been, on issues outside of the States. Just want to make that clear although I, again, do strongly agree with you.



btw, i'm not American, I'm Scottish and live in Scotland (UK) so I have no patriotic reason to have to attack this claim that AI is anti-american.
aye.
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Old 05-28-2005, 10:03 PM   #68
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I am puzzled, sincerely.....

Who has had their civil liberties violated?

Not I. Not any of my friends. I can still speak out agains the governement.

And, finally, if Bill Clinton had done ANYTHING serious to fight terrorism....9/11 would not have happened.
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Old 05-28-2005, 10:12 PM   #69
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If 9/11 never happened then the plot that worked could have been even larger.
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Old 05-28-2005, 10:18 PM   #70
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interesting perspective....

I would think that after the FIRST TRADE center bombing....

and the bombing of the cole.....

We would have done more.....

more than waiting until the video was released with the " it depends on what is is" comment to bomb an asprin factory.
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Old 05-29-2005, 12:44 AM   #71
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Originally posted by Dreadsox

And, finally, if Bill Clinton had done ANYTHING serious to fight terrorism....9/11 would not have happened.
We don't know that. We can guess, we can hope, but we will never know. We can't rewrite history. I agree he should have done more, but then again so does he. But Bush also could have done a lot more, I mean we do know that there were warnings of 9/11 during his administration.
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Old 05-29-2005, 04:11 AM   #72
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Originally posted by Dreadsox


Who has had their civil liberties violated?

Not I. Not any of my friends. I can still speak out agains the governement.
But the prisoners had their human rights violated! First, it´s about them, not about you!

If you spoke out against the government, you would be unsure of possible repercussions you would have to face. You fellow countrymen who engage in such suspicious behavior often are unsure if they will have problems in the future. For example, two young Americans who I met in Costa Rica told me they are organizing peace marches. And sure enough they know that probably they´re monitored. Sure enough they know that in 20 years, an asshole can still damage their future careeer. But even if they are afraid, they continue their protest.

So if you think that anyway everything is ok, those prisoners are far off so what does it matter, its not our business, and everyone can speak out freely in your country without fear, wake up. This might be your reality, but it´s not the reality of millions of Americans.

Apart from that, this thread is about Guantanamo, where people are held without trial. Not only their civil liberties (or what we define as such) are violated, also their human rights.
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Old 05-29-2005, 05:34 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars


But the prisoners had their human rights violated! First, it´s about them, not about you!

If you spoke out against the government, you would be unsure of possible repercussions you would have to face. You fellow countrymen who engage in such suspicious behavior often are unsure if they will have problems in the future. For example, two young Americans who I met in Costa Rica told me they are organizing peace marches. And sure enough they know that probably they´re monitored. Sure enough they know that in 20 years, an asshole can still damage their future careeer. But even if they are afraid, they continue their protest.


I do not believe that there will be any repercussions, unless they do something over the top and illegal.

[Q]So if you think that anyway everything is ok, those prisoners are far off so what does it matter, its not our business, and everyone can speak out freely in your country without fear, wake up. This might be your reality, but it´s not the reality of millions of Americans.[/Q]

Somewhere in this forum, I have taken both sides on this issue. The prisoners deserve a trial, and if I am not mistaken, the American Judicial system (One that may not move fast enough for you) is going to decide what the legal status is of these people.


Quote:
Apart from that, this thread is about Guantanamo, where people are held without trial. Not only their civil liberties (or what we define as such) are violated, also their human rights.
Sorry felt compelled to respond to a post about the damage Bush has done to civil liberties in America. I will slink back out.
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Old 05-29-2005, 05:38 AM   #74
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


We don't know that. We can guess, we can hope, but we will never know. We can't rewrite history. I agree he should have done more, but then again so does he. But Bush also could have done a lot more, I mean we do know that there were warnings of 9/11 during his administration.
Are you seriously saying that if Bill Clinton had not gone after Al-Qaeda you believe 9/11 would have happened. I am talking gone after him after the 1st trade center bombing.

And I am equally as pissed at the people in the White House that missed this as well. But I was indeed responding to the championing of Bill Clinton, the man whose administration threatened careers when he wanted that factory bombed.
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Old 05-29-2005, 11:24 AM   #75
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Originally posted by Dreadsox


Are you seriously saying that if Bill Clinton had not gone after Al-Qaeda you believe 9/11 would have happened. I am talking gone after him after the 1st trade center bombing.
I'm just saying we can't predict absolutes. We could have gone after Al-Qaeda and it could have spurred a quicker attack it could have aided other movements with recruiting etc.

I think what some forget, and a reason that I don't believe we're doing any good with this "war on terror" is that one; Al-Qauda is not the only terrorist group and two; it doesn't take an army to plan and execute an attack like 9/11. It takes one rich backer and less than 50 men to plan and execute an attack like that. So yes it still could have happened. We will never rid this world of terrorism.
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