Grammys "Hey Ya" Sparks Outrage From Native American Groups - Page 2 - U2 Feedback

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Old 02-14-2004, 12:32 PM   #16
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It's all about asserting power....
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Old 02-14-2004, 12:32 PM   #17
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I agree, speedracer. And speaking of the Redskins, do you think Spurrier left because he thought the use of the slur was inappropriate?

Maybe we're giving Outkast a pass here in FYM because they're African-American. Just a thought from a European-Southern whitey-Native American hybrid.

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Old 02-14-2004, 12:46 PM   #18
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Something must be wrong with me. Just as I watched the Superbowl halftime show and didn't notice The Breast, I watched Outkast's performance and didn't notice the Native-themed costumes, despite the fact that I live in New Mexico, work with indigenous peoples and am probably more sensitive to that stuff than the average person. I guess I am just not that easily offended.
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Old 02-14-2004, 01:02 PM   #19
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i'm suprised pro-wrestling doesn't get sued daily for some of their old gimmicks like: tatanka, el matador, the nation, and several others.
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Old 02-14-2004, 01:09 PM   #20
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Old 02-14-2004, 01:24 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by joyfulgirl
Something must be wrong with me. Just as I watched the Superbowl halftime show and didn't notice The Breast, I watched Outkast's performance and didn't notice the Native-themed costumes, despite the fact that I live in New Mexico, work with indigenous peoples and am probably more sensitive to that stuff than the average person. I guess I am just not that easily offended.
You're not the only one.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bono's shades
That being said, I don't like the idea of filing a complaint with the FCC. Don't we have enough of that already these days? I'm afraid if any more FCC complaints get filed it's going to have a really stifling effect. Everyone will be afraid to say or do anything controversial when they are on TV and I don't think that's a good thing. Freedom of speech isn't there to protect speech we approve of - it's to protect speech some people may not want to hear (or in this case see).
Yep. One of these days, it'll get to the point where people won't want to even say "Hi" to somebody for fear that it'll be taken the wrong way.

As for seeing how Native Americans were offended...some were, yes, and they have their reasons, which is fine. But there may have been other Native Americans who didn't see it as bad, who just enjoyed the performance and maybe liked the fact that Outkast was paying homage to their culture or something like that, like U2Kitten said.

What offends some won't offend others. It's up to us as individuals to decide what we personally can and can't handle seeing on TV. We don't need some senator in Washington, D.C., or some group of people we've never even met, making that decision for us.

speedracer...in regards to your question...it would depend on what they were doing.

Bottom line, Outkast never sat there and said, "What can we do to offend the Native Americans who may be watching this?" That was not their intention, so it's not their fault if some people took their performance the wrong way.

Angela
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Old 02-14-2004, 01:45 PM   #22
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everything offends someone in this PC world of ours. it's all fun and laughs until it hits too close to home and then it's offensive. i didn't even notice indians... i thought the tee-pee was an apollo like space capsul myself... eh... what'cha gonna do.

native americans sue outkast, italians sue the sopranos, gays sue eminem, jessie jackson & the PTC sue everybody. what'cha gonna do
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Old 02-14-2004, 03:07 PM   #23
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Yeah, Angela, that's what I meant, paying homage to the culture! What a good way to put it! In a way I always thought the sports teams were too. Nobody names their team after something they don't think is proud and strong and ready to fight. So in a way, it is a compliment. Of course I can't tell anyone else how to feel. But as far as it being a ritual dance, there are so many tribes, and so many dances with so many different meanings, couldn't we just say this one was a new, fun, party dance or something, in good cheer and friendship, and nobody get mad?
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Old 02-14-2004, 03:18 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Kitten
Yeah, Angela, that's what I meant, paying homage to the culture! What a good way to put it!
Thanks. .

Quote:
Originally posted by U2Kitten
In a way I always thought the sports teams were too. Nobody names their team after something they don't think is proud and strong and ready to fight. So in a way, it is a compliment.
Exactly! Good point.

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Originally posted by U2Kitten
Of course I can't tell anyone else how to feel. But as far as it being a ritual dance, there are so many tribes, and so many dances with so many different meanings, couldn't we just say this one was a new, fun, party dance or something, in good cheer and friendship, and nobody get mad?
That'd be nice. And you're right about us not telling others how to feel-like I said, if someone were offended, they've got their reasons, and I understand that and that's fine. And they certainly have every right to express their unhappiness.

But they make it seem like Outkast deliberately set out to offend them. And that's just not true. I'm sure the guys in Outkast are nice people who would never go out of their way to hurt someone's feelings.

Angela
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Old 02-14-2004, 04:24 PM   #25
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Yeah, OutKast wouldn't offend anyone on purpose, and the Grammys and CBS wouldn't be dumb enough to let it on if they thought it was rude.

If someone took an actual ritual dance and made a comedy parody of it, that would be offensive for sure. But OutKast's performance meant no harm. The "Indian" girl dancers really looked more like tinkerbells anyway

Which makes me wonder, have any native people ever been offended by Peter Pan, the way they use "Redskins?"

It is true that you can't tell anyone how to feel. Even on personal things, not just ethnic ones. Sometimes somebody will say something that really hurts my feelings, even my Mom, and think it's stupid I get offended. But if you're hurt, you're hurt, and no one can tell you you aren't no matter how stupid it seems to them.
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Old 02-14-2004, 04:39 PM   #26
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I'm not taking a side here, necessarily, but I think the objection of native peoples to sports teams co-opting their names and symbols lies, in fact, in the "compliment." U2Kitten and Moonlit_Angel have wondered why Native American groups are insulted by their characterization as "strong" and "ready to fight." However, many native peoples had long-standing traditions of peace and simplicity, and others were driven to violence only because white settlers initiated the violence. When native peoples are portrayed as "fighters" and "warriors," that may, in fact, be as insulting to them as someone calling their sports team "The Fighting Quakers."

BTW, I did not see the offending Outkast act, so I can't take a position on it. I do, however, tend to like their music, and I did not see what the "Rosa Parks" fuss was all about.
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Old 02-14-2004, 04:53 PM   #27
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Bottom line, Outkast never sat there and said, "What can we do to offend the Native Americans who may be watching this?" That was not their intention, so it's not their fault if some people took their performance the wrong way.
Moonlit Angel, the initial premise in your statement is probably correct, as far as I can tell, but the conclusion is not necessarily true because the logical implication you invoke is invalid.

Just because unintended or unforeseen consequences follow from one's actions doesn't mean that one's not responsible for them.

On the side of the offended, there's a fuzzy line between "reasonable outrage" and "unreasonable outrage", and if one's not sure where to draw the line, one had best stay far away from it.
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Old 02-14-2004, 04:56 PM   #28
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And speaking of the Redskins, do you think Spurrier left because he thought the use of the slur was inappropriate?
Possibly.

Or it could be because he finally realized he's never going to have the superior talent necessary to make his offense work in the NFL.
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Old 02-14-2004, 06:09 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by paxetaurora
I'm not taking a side here, necessarily, but I think the objection of native peoples to sports teams co-opting their names and symbols lies, in fact, in the "compliment." U2Kitten and Moonlit_Angel have wondered why Native American groups are insulted by their characterization as "strong" and "ready to fight." However, many native peoples had long-standing traditions of peace and simplicity, and others were driven to violence only because white settlers initiated the violence. When native peoples are portrayed as "fighters" and "warriors," that may, in fact, be as insulting to them as someone calling their sports team "The Fighting Quakers."

First, both Moonlit_Angel and I have also said that we do understand how they could feel the way they feel, and nobody can tell anybody else how to feel because we all feel differently about things.

Second, while some tribes or individuals were peaceful, the Native American tribes were warring with each other before the Europeans ever arrived, and continued to war with each other even afterward. They had 'war dances' and 'war parties' and prided themselves in their strength and courage in battle- with other Native tribes! They had war paint and rewards for victories that had nothing to do with the 'white men' and settlers.

When you look at it, most of the "Indian" attacks on settlers were no more than people defending the invasion of their land, as everyone has throughout the world throughout history. After the Civil War, when some of the same brutal military men who destroyed the homes of civilians in SC, GA, and the Shennandoah Valley of VA were sent west to 'fight' the "Indians" things got really bad and degraded to the point of virtual genocide. At that time their aim was to wipe them out and take all the land. Yes, the tribes were fighting and violent at that point, in their own defense. But that doesn't mean they were totally peaceful before that happened, because tribes have always fought with each other, just as the Europeans fought each other before they came to America, just as people all over the world have always and still fight and have wars
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Old 02-14-2004, 07:05 PM   #30
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Very true ^^^^. Although I do see what paxetaurora is getting at, though. Interesting point.

Quote:
Originally posted by speedracer
Moonlit Angel, the initial premise in your statement is probably correct, as far as I can tell, but the conclusion is not necessarily true because the logical implication you invoke is invalid.

Just because unintended or unforeseen consequences follow from one's actions doesn't mean that one's not responsible for them.

On the side of the offended, there's a fuzzy line between "reasonable outrage" and "unreasonable outrage", and if one's not sure where to draw the line, one had best stay far away from it.
But by doing that, that means that this will happen:

Quote:
Originally posted by Bono's shades
Everyone will be afraid to say or do anything controversial when they are on TV and I don't think that's a good thing. Freedom of speech isn't there to protect speech we approve of - it's to protect speech some people may not want to hear (or in this case see).
In order to rid the world of any problems that exist, we need to confront them head on.

Besides, personally, I'm going to be much more offended by what family and friends may say about me or people like me than I am about what some musician or some stranger on some board or whatever says about me or people like me. Those people don't know me or people like me very well, so I can just dismiss their comments and move on. But when a friend or family member comments on an aspect of me or people like me, it'll hurt more, because they mean more to me.

Angela
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