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Old 08-17-2005, 10:31 PM   #16
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Re: Re: GOP Traitors in a Time of War...

Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox


Hmmmmm....

Just curious......

I do not believe President Clinton sought congressional approval for his actions.

Is there a difference when Congress grants the President legitimate war powers, and then makes comments like the ones above.
Of course, the powers granted to Bush by Congress were based almost entirely on the mountain of lies the Bush administration told to get those powers.

So I think the powers are far from legitimate.
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Old 08-17-2005, 10:39 PM   #17
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I emailed this list to Chris Matthews. Hopefully he'll play some real hardball with anyone who appears on his show who made those quotes.

Now i just gotta find Jon Stewart's email address
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Old 08-18-2005, 04:39 AM   #18
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Re: Re: Re: GOP Traitors in a Time of War...

Quote:
Originally posted by melon


You're nitpicking, although, predictably, if this ever became widely public, I can guarantee that the GOP would deflect from the issues at hand and focus on this.

But there's one problem: this "nitpicking" is absolutely irrelevant. This Bush Administration is one of the most secretive administrations in all American history, and if you want to get technical, Congress never formally declared war either. Since technicalities are the overriding factor in all politics (and you know it is true), both Bush and Clinton's wars are on equal legal footing here--except Clinton always brought us into existing conflicts, rather than "preemptive strikes" like Bush. That's ultimately where Bush has gotten into the most trouble with his "war on terror."

Melon
Wow.....the bold felt like you stuck a knife in me.....unpredictably.

Congress granted the President full authority to act in Iraq. The problem that I have, is that at the top of the page, we have a predictable extreme tactic implying that somewhere members of the GOP as a collective group have labled democrats traitors because of their stance on this war.

But I digress, my problem is that it is not nitpicking, but predictably, the thread here deflects the real issue, that lies at the core of my point about authorizing war in Iraq, which the congress did.

The only person to hold responsible for Clinton's actions was Clinton. they are NOT on equal footing.

The Congress, DEMOCRATS as well as REPUBLICANS gave the President the authority to wage war. They are as deserving of being held as accountable as President Bush. The difference, if you are capable of not being partisan for an instant, is that there WAS A VOTE about Iraq, supported by both parties.

Jesus, Cindy Sheehan as at least spoken eloquently about that.

Enjoy this PREDICTABLE partisan thread.....I am out.
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Old 08-18-2005, 05:06 AM   #19
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The question whether American Dems or Cons are more legal or who is on equal ground is idiotic and a total disrespect for life if one thinks about the thousands of victims.

No one has the right to make war, and no war is a "just" war. Obviously, some people think they have the right, which always leads to more pain and suffering one can imagine. We will see if God forgives them for that.
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Old 08-18-2005, 07:20 AM   #20
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Re: Re: Re: Re: GOP Traitors in a Time of War...

Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
But I digress, my problem is that it is not nitpicking, but predictably, the thread here deflects the real issue, that lies at the core of my point about authorizing war in Iraq, which the congress did.
No, they did not. It's the legal difference between an "enemy combattant" and a "prisoner of war." Congress did NOT formally declare war, and nor have they since World War II. And, you see, that's where the "technicalities" count.

Regardless, do any of those quotes from the GOP mention that? No. And how many American soldiers died in Kosovo in combat? Can you count them on one hand? And, even then, does that matter? Both the GOP and Bush expect unquestioning loyalty on this war, otherwise you are clearly a "terrorist sympathizer" and "un-American." This is why I have said that what you have said is, frankly, irrelevant.

Quote:
Enjoy this PREDICTABLE partisan thread.....I am out.
HOW is this partisan? Because I'm exposing the GOP for being EXACTLY what they accuse liberals of being on a regular basis? Did you pay attention to the 2004 election?

I'm sorry. I don't know why Democrats always have to act "bigger" than the GOP, while we give them a free pass to be as jingoistic and narrow-minded as they want.

Melon
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Old 08-18-2005, 08:22 AM   #21
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All this proves is that both sides are partisan. Is anyone in here so naive as to think that if Clinton was to do the same thing Iinvade Iraq) the Republicans would be backing him up? I have had enough of people who only toe the party line regardless of what the issue is.
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Old 08-18-2005, 08:55 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ft. Worth Frog
All this proves is that both sides are partisan.
I agree. I never denied this contention, but the problem is that when people think of the Republican Party, they see "patriots" and "real Americans" and when they think of the Democratic Party, they see "traitors" and "communists."

All I'm saying is that people who vote for the GOP primarily on that issue are fooling themselves, and it sounds like, particularly in the last election, there was a lot of people with short memories who did just that.

Melon
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Old 08-18-2005, 01:38 PM   #23
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Re: Re: Re: GOP Traitors in a Time of War...

Quote:
Originally posted by indra


Of course, the powers granted to Bush by Congress were based almost entirely on the mountain of lies the Bush administration told to get those powers.

So I think the powers are far from legitimate.

Shall I post the quotes from the Clinton administration BEFORE BUSH ever came into office?

Shall I post the quotes from German, Russian, and French intelligence services that CLEARLY show that it was not just the US that thought he still had WMD?

I have so many times in here......There was no GRAND CONSPIRACY!

[Q](MELON) Congress did NOT formally declare war, and nor have they since World War II. And, you see, that's where the "technicalities" count.[/Q]

Not being completely knowledgeable about Kosovo, and unsure about Congress being involved in authorizing force, I thought out loud asking if there was a difference.....

I think there is, and I still do not know if Congress ever voted on Kosovo. Congress definitely voted on October 9, 2002 to give the President the authority to use force in Iraq. It was challenged here in Boston Federal Court by concerned parents of soldiers who wanted a formal declaration of war. The court ruled that this vote was legal under the terms of the constitution for the President to wage war.

Now I will go research to see if they ever took a vote for President Clinton's actions.

You may not agree with me. You may call me nitpicking, BUT, to me it IS an important detail. If President Bush had waged war in Iraq without a vote, I would have been right there pissed off. If you search the forum, you will see where I argued that there should have been a more formal declaration of war. That the Congress was not taking this job seriously.

So as for my partisan nitpicking....I would like to think of myself as a non-partisan nitpicker.

As for Kosovo, the ACLU had this to say:

[Q]FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Wednesday, April 28, 1999

WASHINGTON -- The American Civil Liberties Union today said that the military action in Kosovo ordered by President Clinton violates the Constitution and the War Powers Resolution because it was not authorized by Congress.

In a letter sent to House Speaker Dennis Hastert, the ACLU applauded Rep. Thomas Campbell, R-CA, who has invoked the procedures in the War Powers Resolution to force debate on the use of force in Kosovo. Both of the resolutions introduced by Rep. Campbell, however, are expected to fail.

"It is essential," the letter said, "that congressional approval be sought before more troops are committed."

Congress is also expected to consider two other pieces of legislation, S. Con. Res. 21, which passed the Senate on March 23, and H.R. 1659. But the ACLU said that neither would satisfy the requirements of the War Powers Resolution.

"Launching a sustained military action is a decision that no one person in our democracy -- including the President -- can authorize," said ACLU Legislative Counsel Gregory T. Nojeim, adding that the ACLU takes no position on the merits of the use of force in Kosovo.

Congress adopted the War Powers Resolution in 1973 to ensure that U.S. troops are not sent into hostilities without Congressional authorization, except in cases where a national emergency is created by attack upon the United States.

"It is a power that the framers specified would be shared by Congress and the President," Nojeim added, noting that Article I, Section 8, Clause 11 of the Constitution grants to Congress "the power to declare war [and] grant letters of marque and reprisal." Under the Constitution, Congress is given the ultimate decision as to whether to use force; the President's power is limited to decisions on how to use the military after Congress has authorized the President to act.

Section 2(c) of the War Powers Resolution states that the President has constitutional authority to "introduce United States Armed Forces into hostilities, or into situations where imminent involvement in hostilities is clearly indicated by the circumstances, ... only pursuant to (1) a declaration of war, (2) specific statutory authorization, or (3) a national emergency created by an attack upon the United States. ..."

[/Q]
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Old 08-18-2005, 01:40 PM   #24
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Who hates America now?
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Old 08-18-2005, 01:45 PM   #25
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Re: Re: Re: Re: GOP Traitors in a Time of War...

Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox

Shall I post the quotes from German, Russian, and French intelligence services that CLEARLY show that it was not just the US that thought he still had WMD?

I have so many times in here......There was no GRAND CONSPIRACY!

[/Q]


while many countries agreed that it was likely he had weapons, only one country thought this was worth starting a big old war over.

now, the whole word hates us, dozens of Iraqis die every day, thousands and thousands of young Americans are either dead or horribly wounded (and i see them every day coming up from Walter Reed into Silver Spring to eat at Chipotle, Pot Belly, and Red Lobster), and terrorists are still going to be blowing shit up for the next 100 years.

it's over. they're already lowering expectations and looking for an out.
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Old 08-18-2005, 01:59 PM   #26
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: GOP Traitors in a Time of War...

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
while many countries agreed that it was likely he had weapons, only one country thought this was worth starting a big old war over.
Not true, there were other countries. And I am not about to debate all that shit over again. WHile I supported the fact that I though war was necessary I was VERY critical and felt that there were blunders being made at initial way the administration approached the coalition.


AS for my contention that it is a different situation, Clinton informed Congress that he was sending the bombers in without Congressional approval. He notified them within 48hours of the operation, and that it would happen with or without them, as he had operated in Somalia and Hatti. If I am understanding everything I have read on the topic.

Congress chose to vote to give Clinton the powers after he had notified them that he was launching the mission. It was a very DIVIDED vote.
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Old 08-18-2005, 02:04 PM   #27
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: GOP Traitors in a Time of War...

Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox


Not true, there were other countries. And I am not about to debate all that shit over again. WHile I supported the fact that I though war was necessary I was VERY critical and felt that there were blunders being made at initial way the administration approached the coalition.


the Marshall Islands don't count.

since you are a supporter of the war, and have been dismayed at the continuous blunders and near universal poor decisions, i assume you would call for, at the very least, the resignment of Rumsfeld?
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Old 08-18-2005, 02:55 PM   #28
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: GOP Traitors in a Time of War...

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




the Marshall Islands don't count.

since you are a supporter of the war, and have been dismayed at the continuous blunders and near universal poor decisions, i assume you would call for, at the very least, the resignment of Rumsfeld?
I am shocked he is still there!
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Old 08-18-2005, 03:00 PM   #29
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: GOP Traitors in a Time of War...

Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox


I am shocked he is still there!


i suppose my question comes from my disappointment, if not outright outrage, at people (not necessarily you) who were very pro-war for very high and mighty reasons (establishment of a democracy in the heart of the Middle East! end US support of homocidal dictators! take down one of the earth's worst regimes!) who are still defending this administration's completely and totally inept conduct of the post-war.

if you really believed in the war, wouldn't you be demanding the heads of Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Cheney and Bush on a platter for fucking it all up so royally?

instead, i hear excuses, excuses, excuses for this pathetically inept administration.
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Old 08-18-2005, 03:19 PM   #30
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: GOP Traitors in a Time of War...

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




while many countries agreed that it was likely he had weapons, only one country thought this was worth starting a big old war over.

now, the whole word hates us, dozens of Iraqis die every day, thousands and thousands of young Americans are either dead or horribly wounded (and i see them every day coming up from Walter Reed into Silver Spring to eat at Chipotle, Pot Belly, and Red Lobster), and terrorists are still going to be blowing shit up for the next 100 years.

it's over. they're already lowering expectations and looking for an out.
The United Nations passed three different resolutions authorizing the use of military force against Iraq if it failed to comply with the UN resolutions. In addition, since the invasion, the United Nations has passed another 3 resolutions approving the occupation!

Terrorist hate America. Many others around the world disagree with certain US policies, but many continue to work with the United States and send their own troops to support the operations in Afghanistan and Iraq. Japan has given several Billion dollars to the operations in Iraq as well as sending troops.

The United Kingdom has an entire Armored Division in Southern Iraq and is responisble for security and stability in that region. Poland, Ukraine, South Korea and Italy have all sent thousands of troops into Iraq.

Iraq today now has an opportunity that was impossible while Saddam was in power. They have the opportunity to develop into a strong democratic and prosperous country. The Planets security has been greatly enhanced by the removal of Saddam who was a threat to the planets large energy reserves located just across the Iraqi border in Kuwait and Suadi Arabia. Insuring that Iraq becomes a country that is not a threat to its neighbors and is a cooperative member of the international community will obviously enhance the security of the planet.

Its going to take a long time for Democracy to develop in Iraq, but the country already passed a hurdle that many on the left in here said was not possible. On January 30, 2005 over 8 million Iraqi's proved terrorist and foreign critics wrong when they woke up and voted in their countries first free election in decades.

No doubt, there will be terrorist launching attacks for years to come, followed by critics who will claim that that alone constitutes failure.
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