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Old 06-24-2012, 07:41 PM   #826
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Yes, because they have an extremely communal society in the sense that they are indoctrinated at a very early age about the need to work together because Japan is a country poor in natural resources and so they must rely on their labour. They've achieved, as a nation, incredible things precisely because of that outlook and the fact that the baby boomers there were willing to work harder, longer and later into old age. But they are now facing a complete breakdown of demographics and without immigration it is in fact extremely easy to predict their numbers in 50 years. And what they have going on now is simply unsustainable.

You may take the view that it's preferable to give up a standard of living and the mediocre economy going in exchange for keeping your nation more culturally monolithic, but that's arguable.

As a side note, I have known (and to this day know) many young people my age who have worked and lived in Japan - some white, some brown, some east Asian but not Japanese (mostly Chinese) and they all uniformly had the same experience - Japan is a great place to be, but the levels of racism they experienced there were also shocking to them in comparison to their lives in Canada or the US.
Well, if the comparison is to the US and Canada, where everyone tip-toes around the question of race, at least in urban areas, I'd well believe your last paragraph.

You know, I had occasion the other day to go to a record store in search of a set of headphones. I explained my requirements and the shop assistant recommended a set. I only noticed when I got home and looked at the box that they were Sony headphones. And it occured to me a high proportion of the electronic appliances I've bought over the years have been made by Sony. Currently on my third Vaio laptop. Have a Sony stereo system that hasn't failed me in ten years and I may well still have it ten years from now.

I wouldn't be inclined to write Japan off just yet. Russia has the natural resources Japan lacks, but much deeper social problems and a complete lack of the type of social cohesion that you've rightly mentioned vis-a-vis Japan.

I'd be careful of making predictions on the basis of long term demographic projections which in the past have proven to be notoriously unreliable (e.g., Malthus). Apart from anything else, increasing population is no great achievement in terms of societal development. Otherwise Africa would have produced a Sony - and so far, although things are improving streadily in many African countries - which is great - it hasn't.

As for "cultural monolithism", if that cultural monolithism includes state-of-the-art rail systems, excellent cuisine, low crime rates, and interesting art and music, if you know where to look - that kind of "cultural monolithism", I think, is hardly a bad thing.
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Old 06-24-2012, 09:49 PM   #827
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Yes, because they have an extremely communal society in the sense that they are indoctrinated at a very early age about the need to work together because Japan is a country poor in natural resources and so they must rely on their labour. They've achieved, as a nation, incredible things precisely because of that outlook and the fact that the baby boomers there were willing to work harder, longer and later into old age. But they are now facing a complete breakdown of demographics and without immigration it is in fact extremely easy to predict their numbers in 50 years. And what they have going on now is simply unsustainable.

You may take the view that it's preferable to give up a standard of living and the mediocre economy going in exchange for keeping your nation more culturally monolithic, but that's arguable.

As a side note, I have known (and to this day know) many young people my age who have worked and lived in Japan - some white, some brown, some east Asian but not Japanese (mostly Chinese) and they all uniformly had the same experience - Japan is a great place to be, but the levels of racism they experienced there were also shocking to them in comparison to their lives in Canada or the US.
I've spent a bit of time in Japan and have a number of close Japanese friends and former students. Your analysis strikes me as spot-on.
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Old 06-24-2012, 10:10 PM   #828
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Well, I can't say I've ever visited Japan, but I have a work colleague who spent a few years there, and his main complaint was not so much the racism - though he did experience a certain amount of that - but that he was required to spend a lot of time drinking with his boss outside of working hours, basically on the latter's whim, and still turn up for work at 8 a.m., fresh as a daisy, the following morning, and it was made clear that this was considered a part of his job, and opting out of these drinking sessions would be taken very much amiss by his employer. This was seemingly the number one reason he opted not to stay in the country for the long term.
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Old 06-25-2012, 09:27 PM   #829
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don't worry, the Mexican economy is improving dramatically. immigration has slowed dramatically. they'll take their talents and delicious food somewhere else.
?? How can the Mexican economy be dramatically improving given that their immigration policies are much stricter and actually enforced !! I mean, I thought economic growth depended on a steady stream of unskilled labor.

Activists blast Mexico's immigration law - USATODAY.com

Also this Q&A between Mexican President Felipe Calderon and CNN's Wolf Blitzer in May 2010.


BLITZER: So if people want to come from Guatemala or Honduras or El Salvador or Nicaragua, they want to just come into Mexico, they can just walk in?
CALDERON: No. They need to fulfill a form.
They need to establish their right name. We analyze if they have not a criminal precedent. And they coming into Mexico. Actually…
BLITZER: Do Mexican police go around asking for papers of people they suspect are illegal immigrants?
CALDERON: Of course.
Of course, in the border, we are asking the people, who are you?
And if they explain…
BLITZER: At the border, I understand, when they come in.
CALDERON: Yes.
BLITZER: But once they’re in…
CALDERON: But not — but not in — if — once they are inside the — inside the country, what the Mexican police do is, of course, enforce the law. But by any means, immigration is a crime anymore in Mexico.
BLITZER: Immigration is not a crime, you’re saying?
CALDERON: It’s not a crime.
BLITZER: So in other words, if somebody sneaks in from Nicaragua or some other country in Central America, through the southern border of Mexico, they wind up in Mexico, they can go get a job…
CALDERON: No, no.
BLITZER: They can work.
CALDERON: If — if somebody do that without permission, we send back — we send back them.
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Old 06-25-2012, 09:38 PM   #830
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(I) have a number of close Japanese friends
Let's ask our dog-whistle expert Irvine if this means you secretly despise Japanese people.
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Old 06-25-2012, 11:00 PM   #831
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Let's ask our dog-whistle expert Irvine if this means you secretly despise Japanese people.

I'm pretty sure Irvine will clear me on this one.
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Old 06-25-2012, 11:02 PM   #832
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Okay forum liberals, how many of you think we should open up our borders and let in all illegal immigrants that want to enter the country?
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Old 06-25-2012, 11:16 PM   #833
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only if they have skills that Americans are laking

there is a case to be made for eastern European women.
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Old 06-25-2012, 11:19 PM   #834
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TBH, Europeans tend to have a different outlook on this. Quite frankly, most Europeans (can I say "native Europeans" or is that racist?) wish to keep their countries primarily, well, European. Look at the French vote recently, for example - and I am not defending or advocating for the Front Nationale, but we have to be realstic as to what the popular support for them means. I accept America is different because of its history and that. But, at a time of high unemployment in the West in general, surely it is sensible to return to the old precept that charity, after all, begins at home? Actually, I would be prepared to make the argument that permissive immigration systems encourage racism, rather than the opposite.
I do agree that charity beginning at home is not a bad concept in and of itself. But I also think that as a society we should work to help each other through more organized means as well. I don't think it has to be one way or the other.

I've never been to Europe, do not personally know anyone from there (I know some people who've visited there, but they don't talk European politics much with me), and just think back to whatever I've learned about Europe's political actions from school and news reports. So I can't comment on that much. I just know they're having a lot of struggles right now, but from what I've heard about those struggles, I think those problems run too deep to think tightening immigration will be a big way to solve the issues going on.

Also curious as to your reasoning as to how permissive immigration laws will encourage racism. I think I know what you might be getting at with that, but I want to be clear regardless.

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Its interesting that Japan, still to this day, in spite of all their troubles, one of the most highly developed and advanced economies on the planet, has a very, very restrictive immigration system - and they never make any apologies for it either, and neither should they in my view. In fact, to be bluntly honest, they find the American and European idea of letting in large numbers of foreigners to do the jobs their natives can already do, absurd and laughable.
Except the difference is, many of the immigrants that come to the U.S. are doing jobs those born and raised here DON'T want to do. Most Americans look down their noses at fast food jobs, or jobs out in the field picking foods, or working at local department stores. The reasons why vary-those jobs aren't glamorous enough for them, or they don't pay enough, or whatever, but the fact is, when I hear people talk about looking for work, they always talk about how they don't want to go work at those kinds of jobs.

So when immigrants come here, those are the sorts of jobs they find open, and naturally they're going to take them (because, again, otherwise they'd be seen as lazy immigrants if they didn't work). Americans need to stop bitching about jobs being stolen away from them that they clearly didn't want to do in the first place.

And again, having never been to Japan and having practically no experience with that country, I cannot comment on how that system works out for them. Like I've said elsewhere, I don't disagree with fixing whatever is wrong with our current immigration process, and in order to protect our nation and the people who come here from those who have harmful intents, we need safety measures. That's just logical thinking.

But some of the ideas people come up with just don't seem like they do much to solve the problems, rather, they only take care of the symptoms.

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I only vaguely recall that debate, but as for unemployment assistance and the like, I certainly don't have a problem with the state providing this - indeed, I have availed of it myself. But what I and most conservatives resent is the way the system grants welfare to those who treat welfare as basically a lifestyle choice. That was, I assume, the only point I was trying to make.
It wasn't you so much, it was just overall general sentiment from some. And I don't argue that that is a problem, especially since it does wind up hurting those who actually need assistance and have to jump through hoops and fill out insane amounts of paperwork to prove they need it.

But I think we could be able to think of ways to stop people from taking advantage of the system without presuming most people are doing just that. And sometimes, even if they didn't intend to say such a thing, that's how some of the welfare discussion here has come off, like most people on it don't really need it, or something. I'm willing to admit some of that could've been misinterpreted on our end, too. Sometimes people's messages don't always come across crystal clear.

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In my seven years here, I can only recall a single poster who put up blatant homophobic comments, and that person was banned. Indeed, I was one of the people that reported that person's posts. I personally am in favour of gay marriage on libertarian grounds, but I do not accept, indeed, cannot accept that people who are against gay marriage are prima facie homophobes, simply on the basis of the fact that they disagree with gay marriage. Actually, the American left's tactics on the issue, I find, quite franky, abominable at times, the way they are so eager to slur people who come to the issue with different conclusions to them with the 'homophobe' epithet.
Then what are we supposed to call people who think that way? I agree that not every anti-gay marriage argument is automatically homophobic in nature-as has been noted before, there are some people who just don't support marriage across the board, regardless of the orientation of everyone involved, and then there are gay people out there as well who don't support gay marriage for their own variety of reasons.

But for those who don't fall into either of those groups, who oppose it and give reasons from religion being against it to "supporting traditional marriage" and such, it's hard to not presume there is a homophobic intent behind those arguments. Those arguments can be and have been knocked down repeatedly because they're illogical.

And one's language doesn't have to be blatant for it to come across homophobic. I also remember many, MANY debates on this topic over the years where people didn't come right out and say blatant anti-gay things, but they couched their views in religious language or talk of keeping marriage as it should be and all that sort of thing. That's just as offensive as anything else.

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Agreed here 100%.
Hooray . Proof there will always be common ground somewhere.

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The most accomplished Americans have been immigrants (like, say, Einstein). Immigration isnt in our blood, it is our blood. Yes, give us your huddled masses, but also give us your best and brightest and most ambitious. While an enormous amount of American talent is homegrown, we all benefit when people arrive with a purpose and ambition.
Exactly.
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Old 06-26-2012, 12:02 AM   #835
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Okay forum liberals, how many of you think we should open up our borders and let in all illegal immigrants that want to enter the country?
Well, me of course.

If not, how else will INDY strain to compose an argument?
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Old 06-26-2012, 12:03 AM   #836
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only if they have skills that Americans are laking

there is a case to be made for eastern European women.

Skills and/or assets.

Brazilian men for example.
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Old 06-26-2012, 12:04 AM   #837
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Okay forum liberals, how many of you think we should open up our borders and let in all illegal immigrants that want to enter the country?
See my most recent post, hopefully the answer will be in the immigration discussion part somewhere .
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Old 06-26-2012, 05:20 PM   #838
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Okay forum liberals, how many of you think we should open up our borders and let in all illegal immigrants that want to enter the country?

We have open border liberals and many of them run sanctuary cities. They operate in clear violation of federal immigration law and jurisdiction but you won't see Attorney General Eric Holder suing them or President Obama expressing "grave concerns" about the harm done by illegal immigration to their residents.
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Old 06-27-2012, 02:12 PM   #839
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only if they have skills that Americans are laking

there is a case to be made for eastern European women.
LOL
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Old 06-27-2012, 02:21 PM   #840
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We all benefit, as well, when they arrive in an orderly and lawful process. A process that expects immigrants to respect our laws, language and culture rather expecting us to accommodate them.

Open borders, lax enforcement of laws, amnesty for illegality, non-assimilation, and blatant political pandering all undermine that process.
We also benefit when the food from the farm makes it to market, the trash is picked up and removed, the house is cleaned, the yard looks neat and employers are not paying European teens to fly over for the summer to work because they can't find workers here, which is what they did back in 1998-2000.

Longterm, we benefit because latin American immigrants often have four children instead of two or none like white non-hispanic America. Population growth is key to future economic growth and the overall power of the country. If you want to compete with China in 2040, you don't want to be limiting yourself demograpically.
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