GOP Nominee 2012 - Who Will It Be?, Pt. 4

[LJT]

Surely it was things like the New Deal and the Great Society that allowed for the amazing growth the US witnessed during what many believe to be the USA's 'golden years'. As did the creation of the welfare state and NHS in the UK allowed for the same. I think it's the haphazard dismantling of all that came before by baby boomers who benefited the most of the state's largesse in that post war period to be the most appalling thing.

 

[Irvine511]

Surely it was things like the New Deal and the Great Society that allowed for the amazing growth the US witnessed during what many believe to be the USA's 'golden years'. As did the creation of the welfare state and NHS in the UK allowed for the same. I think it's the haphazard dismantling of all that came before by baby boomers who benefited the most of the state's largesse in that post war period to be the most appalling thing.

You are absolutely correct.

We could also add something like the GI Bill to that list.

Universal health care will likely be a boon to creativity and entrepreneurship, as people will be able to take risks they might not have otherwise lest they lose their insurance.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

2) Some of us feel there are ways infinitely more effective to meet our "obligation towards other human beings" than bigger government, more regulation, higher taxes, less choice and less freedom.

Tell you what, INDY. I'll listen to conservatives' complaints about lack of choice and freedom when they agree to stop trying to restrict what women can do with their bodies and agree to allow gay couples to get married anywhere they wish. I'll listen to conservatives' complaints about overregulation and bigger government involvement when they stop expecting the same federal government they don't want getting involved so much to put tougher regulations on our immigration policy, or when they agree that wiretapping civilians is wrong and join others in protesting such measures instead of going around talking about how such things are "good for the national security".

And as for taxes, hey, there were things my family sure as hell didn't want to pay for that we had no say in (namely two big wars from the past decade). So if we have to suck it up, so do you guys.

And some who think that are even (shock!!) black Americans.

Good for them .

 

[Irvine511]

Or how about the lack of freedom that comes when you don't have health care?

 

[cobl04]

2) Some of us feel there are ways infinitely more effective to meet our "obligation towards other human beings" than bigger government, more regulation, higher taxes, less choice and less freedom. And some who think that are even (shock!!) black Americans.

How exactly does impinging on the rights of the gay community or immigrants or asylum seekers = freedom? I would think meeting obligations towards other human beings would involve not ostracising them, but maybe that's just me.

 

[digitize]

Or how about the lack of freedom that comes when you don't have health care?

Nonono, the government is the only thing that can possibly impact freedom. Duh.

 

[financeguy]

If Romney was sincere he should have gone in and spoke about job creation, focused on the parts of his platform he thought could resonate with the audience.

If he'd done that, everyone on the left would be accusing him of patronising black people.

 

[BVS]

If he'd done that, everyone on the left would be accusing him of patronising black people.

Um, no.

Nice try. If sincere, there would be no issue, the problem is I don't think he's capable of sincerity.

 

[financeguy]

the problem is I don't think he's capable of sincerity.

Did he pick up that trait from his opponent?

 

[Canadiens1131]

Surely it was things like the New Deal and the Great Society that allowed for the amazing growth the US witnessed during what many believe to be the USA's 'golden years'.

There are many economists who argue the policies of FDR (and tax increases in the late 1930s) actually prolonged the Great Depression 7+ years.

I am not well-read enough on the subject to comment intelligently, but you can bet your ass that the best way out of a depression is:

• a World War (war is an amazing creator of demand for things)
• an entirely untouched infrastructure compared with Europe being in flames when the war ends

 

[INDY500]

Or how about the lack of freedom that comes when you don't have health care?

I know the answer but:

What % of Americans receive health care through Medicaid or Medicare?

 

[INDY500]

Surely it was things like the New Deal and the Great Society that allowed for the amazing growth the US witnessed during what many believe to be the USA's 'golden years'. As did the creation of the welfare state and NHS in the UK allowed for the same. I think it's the haphazard dismantling of all that came before by baby boomers who benefited the most of the state's largesse in that post war period to be the most appalling thing.

How exactly does impinging on the rights of the gay community or immigrants or asylum seekers = freedom? I would think meeting obligations towards other human beings would involve not ostracising them, but maybe that's just me.

So we all have some antiquated notions I guess.

I believe only marriage between one woman and one man is sacrosanct because men and women are equal -- but not the same. That gender is not interchangeable.

While others here believe Social Security (New Deal), Medicaid and Medicare (Great Society) are sacrosanct despite the fact these programs are dense with fraud, waste and inefficiency, rendered fathers all but obsolete in poor neighborhoods, and are taking us over a cliff into national bankruptcy.

 

[BVS]

While others here believe Social Security (New Deal), Medicaid and Medicare (Great Society) are sacrosanct despite the fact these programs are dense with fraud, waste and inefficiency, rendered fathers all but obsolete in poor neighborhoods, and are taking us over a cliff into national bankruptcy.

Religion, capitalism, and everything else you worship are dense with fraud and waste. Are you ready to throw them out the door?

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

I believe only marriage between one woman and one man is sacrosanct because men and women are equal -- but not the same. That gender is not interchangeable.

...what?

That really doesn't make sense.

 

[Canadiens1131]

...what?

That really doesn't make sense.

INDY maybe isn't aware of the gay relationship power dynamic. You can be two guys and not equal, INDY. Some gay men just want to be a power bottom with real staying power in the sack, what can I say.

 

[LJT]

So we all have some antiquated notions I guess.

I believe only marriage between one woman and one man is sacrosanct because men and women are equal -- but not the same. That gender is not interchangeable.

While others here believe Social Security (New Deal), Medicaid and Medicare (Great Society) are sacrosanct despite the fact these programs are dense with fraud, waste and inefficiency, rendered fathers all but obsolete in poor neighborhoods, and are taking us over a cliff into national bankruptcy.

They are not sacrosanct and indeed they could be done better, but I don't necessarily believe that the private sector can do them better or best. But I believe health care is something capitalism is never really going to do well, it is not something that can ever be done efficiently, as what is efficient about repairing a heart valve of an 80 odd year old who no longer contributes financially to the state? Plus what government would ever allow a state wide collapse of the healthcare system? Hence businesses involved in healthcare always have the assurance and always have the benefit of the state underpinning everything they do. The best healthcare you can get you have to charge a hell of a lot for to get adequate nurse and doctor numbers as well as the meds and tech used, that's how you get the best in capitalism, it eventually prices the bottom of society out of it.

Efficiency is an overrated term in how we look at such social aspects of human life.

 

[Irvine511]

I had no idea that it's poor black unwed mothers who are responsible for the $15T debt.

Not the Bush tax cuts or wars in Iraq or Afghanistan. Its Reagan's welfare queens who are milking us all dry.

 

[LJT]

There are many economists who argue the policies of FDR (and tax increases in the late 1930s) actually prolonged the Great Depression 7+ years.

I am not well-read enough on the subject to comment intelligently, but you can bet your ass that the best way out of a depression is:

• a World War (war is an amazing creator of demand for things)
• an entirely untouched infrastructure compared with Europe being in flames when the war ends

I am not as informed on the subject of New Deal and the Great Depression as I would like to be as well, but surely even if it prolonged the depression it had an effect after it ended that maybe set up the time of prosperity? It's all what ifs though.

It just bothers me that there seems to be really only one political strand of thought and it's an obsession that equate's economic wealth of a limited few with the wealth of the nation.

What is the value (and freedom) of having an entirely insured population compared to the cost of one where millions are left without. Surely it is the larger social projects of government from motorway construction, train tracks to security and healthcare that fashion a togetherness of the society and gives a reason for the nation-state to exist at all. It's all very hard to quantify in economic terms.

 

[Irvine511]

Absolutely.

 

[Jeannieco]

I'm so dizzy my head is SPINNING!
Ed Gillespie: Mitt Romney 'Retired Retroactively' From Bain Capital

and/or

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...retroactively/2012/07/15/gJQARXknmW_blog.html

 

[U2DMfan]

"It's sad to see," he said. "We now know that this president will say or do anything to keep the highest office in the land, even if it means demeaning the highest office in the land."

Amen, Ed!

I tells ya, it was nice to see Ed Gillespie stand up against the character assassination of John Kerry 8 years ago. Oh wait...he did what?

Fucking hypocrite.

 

[Diemen]

His comment is particularly funny considering how easy it is to show that Romney will adopt whatever position is politically convenient for him, even if it means completely contradicting previous positions.

 

[Irvine511]

Do you not recognize any form of private enterprise or charity, personal compassion or philanthropy, to be the equal of compulsory, collective government egalitarianism?

here's something that would be an enormous economic boon to the most densely populated region of the US, and something that could never, ever be done with charity and personal compassion or philanthropy. there are things that only government has the organizational capacity to do, and anti-government zealots and shortsighted politicians (like Christie and his idiotic "no" to tunnels to Manhattan) are only keeping the US in a perpetual 1979 when it comes to projects like this that would actually help the US join the 21st century and do far, far more for employment than tax cuts for Mitt Romney:

- The Washington Post

 

[anitram]

Personal charity and philanthropy is great for funding after school programs, summer camps for kids, local soup kitchens and food banks, etc. It also plays a role in supplementing health care research funding, for example. But the notion that it is a system that can deliver large-scale social infrastructure is crazy.

 

[corianderstem]

I had no idea that it's poor black unwed mothers who are responsible for the $15T debt.

If you're black and have a slew of kids, you're a welfare queen.

If you're white and have a slew of kids you get a reality show on TLC. And, if you declare yourself to be a church, you don't have to pay taxes.

 

[Jeannieco]

So true!! ^^^

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

That is so true

 

[deep]

Romney said,
"I'll bet you 10 million dollars Obama won't apologize to me."

.

 

[INDY500]

But the notion that it is a system that can deliver large-scale social infrastructure is crazy.

1) Where's that in the Constitution?

Answer: Are you kidding me?

2) Where does government get the money to pay for a "large-scale social infrastructure?"

Answer: It takes it from the private sector.

 

[BVS]

1) Where's that in the Constitution?

Answer: Are you kidding me?

In the preamble:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Is "domestic tranquility" or "general welfare" defined somewhere else in the document that I'm not aware of? How about "blessings of liberty"? Do you have a very black and white non-living definition of that too somewhere?