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Old 03-14-2012, 06:43 PM   #421
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Right, except many of those "conservative" libertarians are, and that's what I mean by not being truly libertarian. Most that call themselves libertarians seem to pick and choose which liberties they really want people to have.

That's why I don't understand the "conservative" or "liberal" adjective to describe a libertarian.

Can you give me an example of each?
They're hybrids.

Ron Paul is the perfect example of a conservative libertarian who implements the ideas of small government and meshes them with the Libertarian ideology.

As far as the left-Libertarianism/social libertarianism/libertarian socialism/whatever. I don't understand a whole lot of that to be honest. I mean, there's tons to read on it from some basic internet searches. I know of their existence, that's really it. And I understand that it's just variances because the term 'Libertarian' is not as finite as you think it is.
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Old 03-14-2012, 06:45 PM   #422
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And I understand that it's just variances because the term 'Libertarian' is not as finite as you think it is.
Well we're going to have to agree to disagree, because according to their own website their definition is VERY finite.
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Old 03-14-2012, 06:50 PM   #423
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I remember one day at work a couple months ago, a guy came into the store asking if there were any Ron Paul people in the area. He was talking more about booths and that sort of thing and if any were set up. I told him I didn't really know-there wouldn't have been any in my store, 'cause we're not allowed to endorse any sort of political ideology of any kind (we're generally advised to stay away from political chatter with customers, too), but I didn't know whether or not the main area of the mall follows that policy.

Anywho, the guy was older, and he had on the Uncle Sam style jacket and top hat, complete with stars and stripes, a Ron Paul T-shirt on underneath the jacket, and Ron Paul pins scattered about all over the outfit and hat.

So, yeah. Very passionate indeed. Had I been allowed to properly engage him in discussion I'd like to have found out why he was as enthusiastic as he was about the guy.

We get a lot of Ron Paul supporters in my area. But like BVS, I wonder just how informed many of them are. They could well be quite informed, but it often seems many just like him 'cause he seems like kind of a rebel who doesn't say the same ol', same ol' they hear many politicians spouting every single day. He's a very colorful character, which I think is part of his appeal.
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Old 03-14-2012, 06:54 PM   #424
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I dunno about that. I think gay people have the right to get married, for instance. I don't think people should deny them the ability to do so. But some people would be able to have a chance at doing that if they're able to vote on whether or not it should be allowed. For those who think marrying whomever you want is a right (or making decisions about your own body or smoking pot or whatever), the idea of people coming along to stop it, be it other civilians, local/state governments, or the federal government, is kind of bothersome, isn't it?
I agree with your viewpoints completely. But you've got to imagine that if Ron Paul's administration is what he wants it to be, and your state government has power and it is also Libertarian, you will get that freedom in the end, no? He's preserving the Constitution first and foremost. And he's taking care of the Federal Government. But as a Constitutionalist he feels no power over the states. That's not to say the state governments cant mimmick his government. That, too, is on the decision of the people to demand.

He'd just be doing his job in the nation that is America. Pulling the strings of the Federal Government (or cutting most of the strings away). The rest isn't up to him (as a Constitutionalist).

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Course, that's getting into anarchy a bit there, come to think of it...
Libertarianism is down the political spectrum of anarchism. Anarchism has an absolutely negative sound to it. Communism does, too though, and Socialism is down that road.
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People often forget that our founding fathers, as much as they hated too much federal power, also got scared at the idea of civilians having too much power, too. They felt there needed to be a proper balance created so that both sides were able to get what they wanted out of the deal.
Absolutely. Mobocracy. This is an opinion though, but I feel as though we've shifted far enough from even the notion of mobocracy to a point where we're completely controlled. Over the past 200 years the government has successfully made a massive list of things we can and cannot do, and has told us what we have to do. Do not be mistaken - the majority of this was at the hands of those 'representing' the people. Or rather, misrepresenting the people because they 'know what's best'. Sometimes... sometimes they do know what's best. Others... they're simply stripping away freedoms.
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Old 03-14-2012, 06:56 PM   #425
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They could well be quite informed, but it often seems many just like him 'cause he seems like kind of a rebel who doesn't say the same ol', same ol' they hear many politicians spouting every single day.
I think that is the case. I suspect people who support Ron Paul do it because they're sick of deciding between only two parties in this country.
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Old 03-14-2012, 06:58 PM   #426
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We get a lot of Ron Paul supporters in my area. But like BVS, I wonder just how informed many of them are. They could well be quite informed, but it often seems many just like him 'cause he seems like kind of a rebel who doesn't say the same ol', same ol' they hear many politicians spouting every single day. He's a very colorful character, which I think is part of his appeal.
Perhaps this is true. One thing you've also got to factor in is his genuinity. He doesn't 'play the game' of politics, if you will. No deal making, no teleprompters, no lies (perhaps avoids the real truth sometimes though), no flipflopping, etc.

Now if only we could get a candidate who is like that where people would back him... oh that'd never happen because the media wouldn't have an interest :P
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Old 03-14-2012, 07:00 PM   #427
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Well we're going to have to agree to disagree, because according to their own website their definition is VERY finite.
Fair enough. I'm getting tired anyways. All of this campaigning on Interference and not a single voter grasped!
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Old 03-14-2012, 07:11 PM   #428
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however, keeping in mind Obama's surprising drop in the polls this week
I don't think the drop in the polls is surprising at all. As soon as the gas prices started going up you could predict it. It's an instant and constant hit on people, the prices of so many other things go up, and people have far less discretionary income to spend on other things. Income that they were just feeling comfortable spending on other things. Bye bye summer vacation for many people too, if they were even planning one. The recovery is still very tenuous, and people will blame Obama for gas prices and the fallout-that's just how it is.
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Old 03-15-2012, 12:43 AM   #429
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"Libertarians" often like to pull that trick of talking about how they want to strip the federal government of power to give more power to the people and their individual rights, when in reality they want states to be allowed to ban women's rights, gay's rights, minority's rights, etc.
exactly. what about those of us who don't live in a liberal state but like the rights that are in place now? when i'm in the us, the state i'm in has already proven how conservative they are by putting a constitutional ban on same sex marriage. if they had the power to do the same for other things that have been made legal at the federal level, such as abortion, i know they would. do i have to do research on all other 49 states to find the one that most fits in with my ideology so i can figure out where i can move to? and then of course hope i can actually afford to move there and find a job, etc.

the one thing i like about having a large federal government is it means there's a lot in place that is the same from state to state. of course this then bites you in the ass when a president you disagree with comes into power and puts forth policies you don't agree with, but i'd rather take that risk than have to move from state to state because i don't agree with their policies.
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Old 03-15-2012, 01:32 AM   #430
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I agree with your viewpoints completely. But you've got to imagine that if Ron Paul's administration is what he wants it to be, and your state government has power and it is also Libertarian, you will get that freedom in the end, no? He's preserving the Constitution first and foremost. And he's taking care of the Federal Government. But as a Constitutionalist he feels no power over the states. That's not to say the state governments cant mimmick his government. That, too, is on the decision of the people to demand.

He'd just be doing his job in the nation that is America. Pulling the strings of the Federal Government (or cutting most of the strings away). The rest isn't up to him (as a Constitutionalist).
I'd like to think that would be the case. I just don't know how easily it'd be for him to actually run the country that way (and then there are people who don't know how much he adheres to the true libertarian ideals to begin with).

Myself, I honestly don't know what to think of the guy. I agree with his drug stance, agree with his "let's stop going to war so damn much" stance-it's REALLY nice to hear someone say that for once, but some of his other views I keep hearing back and forth on what he believes in regards to them, and it's very confusing.

Not to say your idea wouldn't be worth a try with a true libertarian candidate, that could be quite the interesting experiment. But with the way our system works nowadays, it'd be very hard to do. And then of course we'd have to make sure the state government was libertarian, too, and that enough people would be informed and involved enough to work alongside.

Woo to being in agreement on those specific viewpoints on those issues, by the way .

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Libertarianism is down the political spectrum of anarchism. Anarchism has an absolutely negative sound to it. Communism does, too though, and Socialism is down that road.
Indeed. Anarchism right now only sounds good to many people within the confines of a Sex Pistols song .

But yeah, there's always going to be strange bedfellows and different ends and whatnot.

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Absolutely. Mobocracy. This is an opinion though, but I feel as though we've shifted far enough from even the notion of mobocracy to a point where we're completely controlled. Over the past 200 years the government has successfully made a massive list of things we can and cannot do, and has told us what we have to do. Do not be mistaken - the majority of this was at the hands of those 'representing' the people. Or rather, misrepresenting the people because they 'know what's best'. Sometimes... sometimes they do know what's best. Others... they're simply stripping away freedoms.
I do agree with this as well, and don't want to dismiss the civilians at all. I do think, for the most part, many can be trusted to do the right things without people telling them to do so. I still have a crazy faith in humanity overall, and as the old saying goes, "power corrupts" and our government has freely shown just how true that saying is many times in no uncertain terms.

But at the same time, having some sort of proper structure in place still makes sense, too. I think the main issue is just looking at all the issues and deciding who has the power to control what. And I think if we were all able to sit down and make a list or whatever, we might actually for the most part find ourselves in agreement on what the government can control versus what we can control. I really don't think it's nearly as complicated as many people like to make it out to be sometimes.

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Perhaps this is true. One thing you've also got to factor in is his genuinity. He doesn't 'play the game' of politics, if you will. No deal making, no teleprompters, no lies (perhaps avoids the real truth sometimes though), no flipflopping, etc.

Now if only we could get a candidate who is like that where people would back him... oh that'd never happen because the media wouldn't have an interest :P
They would once they realized that a good portion of the country supported him. Right now Ron Paul's fanbase is definitely vocal and passionate, but how much of the population it comprises, I don't know. But if at least half the country was behind a candidate of that sort, the media'd HAVE to pay attention at some point. And if not, they should be bombarded by voters until they do.

Yeah, I think the guy seems overall pretty genuine and honest-he's the old guy who just says whatever's in his head and doesn't care how it sounds . Of all the Republican candidates, he certainly annoys me the least.

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I think that is the case. I suspect people who support Ron Paul do it because they're sick of deciding between only two parties in this country.
And on that note, I certainly understand their feelings. Limiting our options to two people really is pretty crazy.
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Old 03-15-2012, 02:40 AM   #431
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Well we're going to have to agree to disagree, because according to their own website their definition is VERY finite.
Point us to the conservative website. And then the liberal website.

Libertarian is both a party and an ideology.
It would be like the Democrats changing their name to 'Liberal Party'.
Would that platform or definition then represent all self-described liberals?

P.S.
Was Noam Chomsky a libertarian? I don't know. But I do know that he would know better about his own views than I would. I see him as a bit of Left radical, so I am not the person to illustrate his specific views.

That said, I do think there are liberals that don't believe the Government is the answer to all of our problems. It goes to the idea that libertarianism isn't a political platform, nor is it represented solely by Ron Paul, who is very much on the Right on almost every issue. You could call him a Right Winger with accuracy, although that is a loaded term...usually reserved for Limbaugh's and Hannity's and hard social stances. But he is an ideological conservative to the core. And so much of his conservative ideology influences his constitutionalism, which influences his libertarianism. This is part of a long ass post right there...I'll mercifully just skip the rest of it.

Libertarians believe in some government, naturally. I don't think arguing that any support of governmental power invalidates someone as a libertarian. I think outright encroachment of civil liberties would (support for the Patriot Act, support for the health care mandate). The people that call themselves libertarian incorrectly are numerous, but it's tough...

This phraseology is both necessary for ease of conversation in discussing broader views and completely maddening at the same time. I don't think people should draw the correlation between libertarianism and 'use of government' It is absolutely a sliding scale, like liberal or conservative. Just on a different axis.
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Old 03-15-2012, 08:10 AM   #432
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Point us to the conservative website. And then the liberal website.

Libertarian is both a party and an ideology.
It would be like the Democrats changing their name to 'Liberal Party'.
Would that platform or definition then represent all self-described liberals?
It doesn't matter if you're talking about the party or the ideology, they both have strict definitions.

Conservative, liberal, Democrat and Republican do not.

Conservative and liberal are measurements on a sliding scale, libertarian is not.

You can be "mostly conservative" or "slightly liberal" but one can't be "kind of libertarian", that's like describing oneself as "kind of Catholic". You either are or you're not. You can be a non-practicing Catholic, but that basically means you are not Catholic.
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Old 03-15-2012, 09:04 AM   #433
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(Reuters) - Republican presidential hopeful Rick Santorum told Puerto Ricans on Wednesday they would have to make English their primary language if they want to pursue U.S. statehood, a statement at odds with the U.S. Constitution.

Santorum traveled to the U.S. territory to campaign ahead of the island's Republican primary election scheduled for Sunday, where he, Mitt Romney and Newt Gingrich are vying for 20 delegates.

Puerto Ricans, who recognize both English and Spanish as their official languages, are scheduled to vote in November on a referendum to decide whether they want to pursue statehood or remain a self-governing U.S. commonwealth.

In an interview with El Vocero newspaper, Santorum said he supported Puerto Ricans' right to self-determination regarding the island's political status.

"We need to work together and determine what type of relationship we want to develop," he told the newspaper.

But Santorum said he did not support a state in which English was not the primary language.

"Like any other state, there has to be compliance with this and any other federal law," Santorum said. "And that is that English has to be the principal language. There are other states with more than one language such as Hawaii but to be a state of the United States, English has to be the principal language."

However, the U.S. Constitution does not designate an official language, nor is there a requirement that a territory adopt English as its primary language in order to become a state.

Congress would have to give approval if Puerto Rico is to become the 51st state. Although Congress has considered numerous proposals to make English the official U.S. language, none has ever passed.

However, some states have passed their own laws declaring English the official language, including heavily Hispanic Florida.

Puerto Rico has about 4 million people and its population can vote in partisan primaries but not presidential elections. Puerto Ricans on the mainland have the same voting rights as other U.S. citizens.

Santorum's statement may fall flat with Puerto Rican Republicans, who have always argued that issues of language and culture should be controlled by state governments and not the federal government.

It also could alienate the 4.2 million Puerto Ricans who live on the U.S. mainland, including nearly 1 million in presidential swing-state Florida.

Romney and Gingrich have both said Puerto Ricans must decide their future for themselves. Romney has said that if they choose to pursue statehood, he would help them achieve it.

Romney, who is scheduled to travel to Puerto Rico on Friday and stay through the weekend, won the endorsement of Governor Luis Fortuno, who is also the head of Puerto Rico's pro-statehood New Progressive Party.

Santorum was to meet with Fortuno on Wednesday before a town hall meeting with residents.

He said he and Fortuno are friends because they went to the same church in Washington when Fortuno served as Puerto Rico's non-voting representative in the U.S. Congress from 2004-2008.

Santorum also said that he does not support "at this time" allowing residents in territories like Puerto Rico to vote for president, although he said he was open to analyzing alternatives, such as allowing their votes to count in the popular vote but not in the Electoral College.
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Old 03-15-2012, 09:25 AM   #434
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I think before we adopt English as our official language, we should require and IQ test for Presidential candidates.
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Old 03-15-2012, 09:31 AM   #435
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I guess he could always rewrite The Constitution if he was elected. He could figure out a way. Maybe he could say that God gave him the power.

Wasn't it Sarah Palin who carried around a copy in her pocket and gave them away? Maybe she could spare one for Rick.
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