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Old 02-02-2012, 04:21 PM   #811
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Originally Posted by anitram View Post
Except apparently this line has appeared numerous times in his stump speech.

I have actually seen excerpts from Republican blogs and message boards where the anti-Romney contingent is now saying how this proves that Mormons aren't Christians since no Christian would say something so deeply contrary to Jesus' teachings. These are not criticisms coming from the left.

I just think that it's a tone-deaf statement made by a candidate who is beyond wealthy and already seems out of touch. We live in times where it's just a particularly insensitive thing to say. And as always, it's not what you say as much as how it's perceived. It's pretty clear that this isn't going be perceived well by most.
Well, tone-deaf, he may be, but problem is it's all about optics already, which does not bode well for November.

If Romney's, IMO, completely uncontroversial comments (and for the record I doubt if I'm even in the top 5 income earners of those that posted in this thread, let alone the 1%, and certainly didn't go to a $50k a year college, or ever, in my life, get a job through family connections) create such a reaction, then what happens if he starts tackling really controversial isues such as the pay and entitlements of government workers (and contrary to the impression created by some on the left, some categories of government workers are overpaid and/or underworked). Not all, but some.

The guy actually said that if the safety net for the very poor was broken, he would fix it. He did not in any way throw the poor off the bus or anything like it. Yes, he also said that his main interest was in attracting the votes of the 90% in the middle rather than the very rich or the very poor. So what. Big deal. Unlike the Dems, he is honest enough to admit that people from low income groups, on average don't tend to vote as much as middle class people, so any candidate for election, obviously, is primarily focused on the middle class votes.
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Old 02-02-2012, 05:00 PM   #812
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Yes, he also said that his main interest was in attracting the votes of the 90% in the middle
Do you think that it's a fair assessment of the current American economic situation to say that 90-95% of Americans are middle class?

Because I think that is a huge problem with his statement (aside from the optics and the amateurish "go to the other party, they care about you" comment).
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Old 02-02-2012, 05:03 PM   #813
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According to the Census Bureau, as of September 2011, 15.1% of Americans (46 million) live below the official poverty line ($11,100 for an individual, $22,300 for a family of four). That's the highest number of Americans living in poverty since the Census Bureau started tracking that data 52 years ago. Not to mention how many of those 84.9% "middle" Americans (and I don't know of any economists who define the poverty line as where the "middle class" begins) are all too aware right now that they're just one crisis away from swelling the ranks of the 15.1%. That's an awful lot of people to dismiss as apolitical mooches. Why not grant them the respect of assuming most of them, too, want to hear the case for how and why your economic plan gives them a better chance at a job with a living wage than your opponent's, as well as your reassurances that the safety net will be protected. Shouldn't be that tall of an order. It's hard not to hear in this a reflexive bias on his part that poor people aren't 'good, honest, hardworking Americans' like the middle class are. It's not irrational or superficial to distrust politicians who come across like that, which is why conservative pundits also assailed Romney's comments. One statement isn't going to make or break him, no, but he can't afford to repeatedly say things like that either.
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Old 02-02-2012, 05:20 PM   #814
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It's okay . I may be getting a bit heated here, too, so I need to remember to keep my cool as well. When an issue touches people personally, it's tough to not let one's emotions get in the way of everything.

And now I'm rambling. *Shuts up and sits down and lets someone else talk*
Don't worry, i didnt take your words the wrong way and i certainly wasn't heated in my previous post. Just a "friendly" rant

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Not one person in here said there was anything wrong with wealth. I have to say you're coming off a little out of touch yourself...
C'mon now, "i'm" out of touch because you disagree with me? Whats that about?

Honestly i just want to see jobs created and people getting back to work. However that happens or whatever it takes, i guess im for it. If Obama can get it done, well, its sure high time he do it. IF he can't then i hope the next guy (Mitt and not Newt) can get it done.

I don't see the poor people opening businesses and creating jobs for others, i think thats part of what Romney was saying perhaps. They will be dependent (hopefully on jobs and not govt assistance or "safety nets") on the middle class and the rich to do this. The rich could probably hire a lot of people if they weren't busy hoarding their money or trying to weather the current economic storm. Everyone is suffering in some way i suppose.

That's my take on what Romney said...


As to what Financeguy said about govt workers, yes, there does need to be some changes. I wont get too much into that here and now, but i work for the DOD and this country is at war. And yet somehow in my office there are a few individuals who don't have enough work to do and earn too much money to sit around and post on facebook all day. I see this everday at work. And then there are people like me, who do the job that 2-4 people previously would have done, im constantly busy and putting out fires and dealing with the latest emergency that seems to pop up every 5 minutes. Rather than freeze our pay for another 3 or 4 years, why not just go on a hiring freeze and stop bringing in the dead weight? Im pretty sure i could make more money managing contracts and purchasing for production in private industry than i do for the govt. But that's not the point.

Personally ive had a strong work ethic since i was a kid, bagging groceries at the supermarket afterschool or mowing lawns in the neighborhood so i could afford a new pair of tennis shoes...or after high school when i joined the Army. Im proud to run circles around some of the dead weight in the DOD. What i don't like is when interacting with some of them it clearly pisses some of them off, because when i need something done "now" or "yesterday" to them that's off-putting....afterall they have much more pressing stuff to do like feed their face all day long and update their facebook status, in between maybe accomplishing 1 or 2 tasks for an 8 hour day. This is whats wrong with the govt, but heck that's another story. And i don't want to get back into rant territory again.
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Old 02-02-2012, 05:29 PM   #815
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According to the Census Bureau, as of September 2011, 15.1% of Americans (46 million) live below the official poverty line ($11,100 for an individual, $22,300 for a family of four). That's the highest number of Americans living in poverty since the Census Bureau started tracking that data 52 years ago. Not to mention how many of those 84.9% "middle" Americans (and I don't know of any economists who define the poverty line as where the "middle class" begins) are all too aware right now that they're just one crisis away from swelling the ranks of the 15.1%. That's an awful lot of people to dismiss as apolitical mooches. Why not grant them the respect of assuming most of them, too, want to hear the case for how and why your economic plan gives them a better chance at a job with a living wage than your opponent's, as well as your reassurances that the safety net will be protected. Shouldn't be that tall of an order. It's hard not to hear in this a reflexive bias on his part that poor people aren't 'good, honest, hardworking Americans' like the middle class are. It's not irrational or superficial to distrust politicians who come across like that, which is why conservative pundits also assailed Romney's comments. One statement isn't going to make or break him, no, but he can't afford to repeatedly say things like that either.
If this is all true, then shouldn't the focus be on Barrack Obama instead of something Romney said? Obama is the President....what about all of the "HOPE & CHANGE" stuff? I hope this isn't what he meant by that. Either he lied, is in over his head, or just doesn't have a clue how to get the economy going again. He's be in office 3 years now, and he's done some really good things that i pointed out a couple of pages back, but he's also failed in creating jobs as you have pointed out here. Why would anyone vote for this guy again? Unless he's got some trick card up his sleeve, or maybe a real jobs plan (finally) this time, i don't see why he gets another shot come November, barring an economic miracle. And i will be praying for one, mind you, just like i hope i win the lottery.
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Old 02-02-2012, 05:36 PM   #816
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I think that you think that the President can do a lot more than he actually can. I am not sure when it became commonplace to think that a President creates jobs, for example. I am also not sure what anyone expects with an obstructionist Congress that is interested in nothing but making every policy Obama's Waterloo.

Look, Obama has made some mistakes - the two that I fault the most is not properly reforming the financial system when he had immense popular support to do so (instead he gave Goldman Sachs guys jobs in the administration) and spending too much political capital on a healthcare bill that was mediocre at best.

But to imply that the economy is bad because of him, or that he should be shouldering the burden of a housing bubble that collapsed due to policies that he had nothing to do with and a financial system that went under long before he was even in fedeal politics is very shortsighted and only sets him up for automatic failure.

And no, I don't think that voting for the GOP on some sort of misguided notion that if we only had a GOP House and Senate good things would get done is any sort of a solution. The Bush years of absolutely no meaningful oversight were a good example of why.

Truth be told, there is really no way that anything will get fixed by this election - America is a completely politically divided country of ideologues and until some kind of major third-party shake-up, it will just be business as usual. Everything is politicized - just take a look at your judiciary - short of dictatorships and authoritarian states in the world, you won't find another jurisdiction whose judiciary is politicized to such an extent that you can predict Supreme Court decisions with probably a 99% accuracy. Sad state of affairs all around.
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Old 02-02-2012, 06:15 PM   #817
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that was a very good post.
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Old 02-02-2012, 06:29 PM   #818
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Originally Posted by anitram View Post
I think that you think that the President can do a lot more than he actually can. I am not sure when it became commonplace to think that a President creates jobs, for example. I am also not sure what anyone expects with an obstructionist Congress that is interested in nothing but making every policy Obama's Waterloo.
I thought that this was quite an interesting article that appeared in the New Yorker some days ago:
The Obama Memos: How Washington Remade the President : The New Yorker

Quote:
George C. Edwards III, a political scientist at Texas A. & M., who has sparked a quiet revolution in the ways that academics look at Presidential leadership, argues in “The Strategic President” that there are two ways to think about great leaders. The common view is of a leader whom Edwards calls “the director of change,” someone who reshapes public opinion and the political landscape with his charisma and his powers of persuasion. Obama’s many admirers expected him to be just this.

Instead, Obama has turned out to be what Edwards calls “a facilitator of change.” The facilitator is acutely aware of the constraints of public opinion and Congress. He is not foolish enough to believe that one man, even one invested with the powers of the Presidency, can alter the fundamentals of politics. Instead, “facilitators understand the opportunities for change in their environments and fashion strategies and tactics to exploit them.” Directors are more like revolutionaries. Facilitators are more like tacticians. Directors change the system. Facilitators work the system. Obama’s first three years as President are the story of his realization of the limits of his office, his frustration with those constraints, and, ultimately, his education in how to successfully operate within them.
Now I need to find an article I spotted last week that mentioned that under Obama more private sector jobs have been created up to now than under the entire W. Bush presidency.
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Old 02-02-2012, 06:39 PM   #819
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If this is all true, then shouldn't the focus be on Barrack Obama instead of something Romney said? Obama is the President....what about all of the "HOPE & CHANGE" stuff? I hope this isn't what he meant by that. Either he lied, is in over his head, or just doesn't have a clue how to get the economy going again. He's be in office 3 years now, and he's done some really good things that i pointed out a couple of pages back, but he's also failed in creating jobs as you have pointed out here. Why would anyone vote for this guy again? Unless he's got some trick card up his sleeve, or maybe a real jobs plan (finally) this time, i don't see why he gets another shot come November, barring an economic miracle. And i will be praying for one, mind you, just like i hope i win the lottery.
I don't think it takes just four years to fix the clusterfuck we had in the fall of 2008.
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Old 02-02-2012, 06:51 PM   #820
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I don't know why anyone would want Trump's endorsement-least of all Romney. There are already ads saying they both like to fire people.

I think it hurts him, especially with his corporations are people and poverty gaffes.
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Old 02-02-2012, 06:56 PM   #821
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To anitram's post I'll just add that my post above wasn't intended as an endorsement ("...so, vote Obama instead!"). As several conservative pundits have pointed out in criticizing Romney, if you actually believe your own party's professed economic philosophy, then you'll believe it offers the best opportunities for everyone, not just the middle class, and you should say so. Obama, too, overrelies on invoking "the middle class"--as do most all American politicians, of both parties; that's a longstanding gripe of mine about our political culture--but he's either savvy enough about "optics," sincere enough about believing his economic policy's ability to improve everyone's lot longerm, or both, to grasp that most poor people want more than just assurances that a safety net will always be there and are quite willing to work hard for that. Whether Obama's justifications, and he'll doubtless be making a lot of them on the campaign trail, for why recovery hasn't come faster are convincing...that's up to the voter to decide.
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Old 02-02-2012, 08:13 PM   #822
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^

I think that you think that the President can do a lot more than he actually can. I am not sure when it became commonplace to think that a President creates jobs, for example. I am also not sure what anyone expects with an obstructionist Congress that is interested in nothing but making every policy Obama's Waterloo.
No, honestly i really don't think that. But Obama did run on HOPE & CHANGE...."CHANGE YOU CAN BELIEVE IN". Presidents are often judged on the economy...

I am well aware of the obstructionist congress, whom i agree i would run out of town...all of them...if i could. But until that happens nothing will change. They will keep blocking everything Obama tries to do, in effect, making him a failure (for lack of better words). Why do we choose 4 more years of this?

He was the one who was supposedly going to fix this mess, and now he owns the mess.

Sadly I have yet to hear a rational argument in here as to why we should re-elect him this year.
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Old 02-02-2012, 08:40 PM   #823
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Presidents are often judged on the economy...
My friend thinks the same way. He once said to me: "As long as I have a job, I'm happy with whoever is President".

As a result, my friend liked Reagan, hated Bush Sr., liked Clinton, hated Dubya, and now likes Obama.
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Old 02-02-2012, 11:33 PM   #824
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Originally Posted by Mrs. Garrison View Post
Don't worry, i didnt take your words the wrong way and i certainly wasn't heated in my previous post. Just a "friendly" rant



C'mon now, "i'm" out of touch because you disagree with me? Whats that about?

Honestly i just want to see jobs created and people getting back to work. However that happens or whatever it takes, i guess im for it. If Obama can get it done, well, its sure high time he do it. IF he can't then i hope the next guy (Mitt and not Newt) can get it done.

I don't see the poor people opening businesses and creating jobs for others, i think thats part of what Romney was saying perhaps. They will be dependent (hopefully on jobs and not govt assistance or "safety nets") on the middle class and the rich to do this. The rich could probably hire a lot of people if they weren't busy hoarding their money or trying to weather the current economic storm. Everyone is suffering in some way i suppose.

That's my take on what Romney said...


As to what Financeguy said about govt workers, yes, there does need to be some changes. I wont get too much into that here and now, but i work for the DOD and this country is at war. And yet somehow in my office there are a few individuals who don't have enough work to do and earn too much money to sit around and post on facebook all day. I see this everday at work. And then there are people like me, who do the job that 2-4 people previously would have done, im constantly busy and putting out fires and dealing with the latest emergency that seems to pop up every 5 minutes. Rather than freeze our pay for another 3 or 4 years, why not just go on a hiring freeze and stop bringing in the dead weight? Im pretty sure i could make more money managing contracts and purchasing for production in private industry than i do for the govt. But that's not the point.

Personally ive had a strong work ethic since i was a kid, bagging groceries at the supermarket afterschool or mowing lawns in the neighborhood so i could afford a new pair of tennis shoes...or after high school when i joined the Army. Im proud to run circles around some of the dead weight in the DOD. What i don't like is when interacting with some of them it clearly pisses some of them off, because when i need something done "now" or "yesterday" to them that's off-putting....afterall they have much more pressing stuff to do like feed their face all day long and update their facebook status, in between maybe accomplishing 1 or 2 tasks for an 8 hour day. This is whats wrong with the govt, but heck that's another story. And i don't want to get back into rant territory again.
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Old 02-02-2012, 11:36 PM   #825
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I am well aware of the obstructionist congress, whom i agree i would run out of town...all of them...if i could.
It's worth remembering that the "obstructionist congress" was sent there to stop the failures and spending explosion that 2 years of a "non-obstructionist congress" had produced.

Otherwise, (and I hope I don't embarrass you) but I've enjoyed your posts of late.
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