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Old 01-09-2012, 12:21 AM   #196
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It's silly to give blame or credit to the President over economic matters, especially in the short-term. For the most part, the economy works on its own. There are isolated cases, such Bush's TARP, which have made huge, short-term differences. We are where we are today because of the massive housing/credit bubbles of the last decade and their ensuing collapse, period. Such an enormous collapse means a persisting slow-growth, high-unemployment period, no matter what the President does. The President can certainly help via stimulus packages, etc., but ultimately the private economy will bring us back. The economy would be the same today, more or less, whether Bush, Gore, Kerry, McCain, or Obama were (or were not) elected.
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Old 01-09-2012, 10:21 AM   #197
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It's silly to give blame or credit to the President over economic matters, especially in the short-term. For the most part, the economy works on its own. There are isolated cases, such Bush's TARP, which have made huge, short-term differences. We are where we are today because of the massive housing/credit bubbles of the last decade and their ensuing collapse, period. Such an enormous collapse means a persisting slow-growth, high-unemployment period, no matter what the President does. The President can certainly help via stimulus packages, etc., but ultimately the private economy will bring us back. The economy would be the same today, more or less, whether Bush, Gore, Kerry, McCain, or Obama were (or were not) elected.


i agree up until the last statement. and this is why in my laundry list of qualities/positions a candidate should have, economic stuff is much further down on the list than, say, foreign policy and social issues.

would McCain have pushed through the same stimulus that prevented a second Great Depression?

i'm sure he would have been advised to do so.

actually, perhaps maybe he would have. perhaps it would have been even bigger, the $1.5T that was likely needed. because it would have come from a Republican.
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Old 01-09-2012, 10:34 AM   #198
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Black Man Confronts Gingrich On Food Stamps Comments: 'Stop Using Blacks As A Punching Bag' | ThinkProgress
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Old 01-09-2012, 11:08 AM   #199
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Compromise is a sign of a serious candidate. Catering to nut jobs is not...
and yet they all do it on both sides. Kerry did it in 2004 and it might have cost him that election, yet Romney will have to do it this year if he wants those nut jobs to vote for him, otherwise they stay home and Obama wins.

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We'd all be much better off if somebody just took a sledgehammer to both parties.
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Agreed
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Old 01-09-2012, 11:46 AM   #200
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Well, Rome wasn't built in a day. I know that's not what people who are desperate for work want to hear, but it is going to take us a while to get out of this mess, 'cause it's a pretty big one.

I'd also add that we might be able to make faster progress if everyone in the country was willing to make sacrifices and work together. But when you've got people arguing and pointing fingers every which way, that's not likely to happen.

And people have to humble themselves. I know working at a fast food restaurant may not be your dream job, but hell, it's better than nothing and would pay at least some of the bills, right?
Agreed! But here is part of the problem, why would someone bother to work at a fast food restaurant for minimum wage when they could stay home and collect welfare or unemployment compensation, and free healthcare? I understand their plight but there has to be some incentive for them to take that step, and unfortunately, some Americans are too lazy to step out of their own shadow.



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No argument there. The parties should be fighting this, but how can they when they're all in the pockets of the rich? And remember, daring to suggest that the rich have more than enough of their share is evil socialist commie talk in some people's eyes.
Spot on. However, when is someone going to challenge these big corporations who move their tax base overseas to avoid paying taxes in America? That's something which should be looked at from both sides, of course, shouldn't there be a greater incentive for them to "come home" in the form of a lower tax rate?

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As for Bill Ayers, unless he's hanging with Obama at the White House every weekend, I don't see why that's anything worth mentioning. They haven't been spotted together recently or anything like that, so...I don't really see the issue. And most people my age and younger likely don't even have any clue who the hell Bill Ayers is. He holds no relevance to young people's current concerns.
The Ayers comments are relevant to the context of the original post several pages back, where Romney was being questioned by someone in the crowd, and someone else here seemed to mock that line of questioning (how dare they?). This led to my post "Where was this line of questioning in 2008?" regarding Ayers and Obama's general lack of overall experience. While i do agree with you that it shouldn't be a campaign issue in 2012, because personally i don't believe there are any connections between the two other than what's already been stated, I also think that people your age or younger should be aware of the history before they vote and then make their own decision based on facts and not spin from either side.

I only say this in interest of full disclosure, because i can already tell you that in the coming months we are going to hear every little detail of Romney's past, every penny he's ever made or spent, every business he has shut down and every person affected by his Bain Capital ventures. Just like we've already heard all of the details of the personal life of Newt Gingrich (vomit) as well as Mack Daddy Cain's purported extramarital affairs and indecent proposals.

And if by some extraordinary turn of events Romney isn't the GOP nominee and one of the wingnuts is (Santorum, for example), prepare to hear about how much he hates gays and how he has a secret God-given agenda to seek and rebuke this "unholy lifestyle".

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I think this is something that, for once, practically everyone in the country might miraculously agree on.
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Old 01-09-2012, 12:06 PM   #201
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CNN Political Producer Rachel Streitfeld

Nashua, New Hampshire (CNN) – As he offered a lengthy rumination Monday on his experience in the private sector and how it would inform his presidency, Mitt Romney made another comment that will likely provide fodder for his opponents.

"I like being able to fire people who provide services to me," Romney said while answering a question from an audience member about health care.

As he described his approach to overhauling the health care system, the GOP candidate added: "If someone doesn't give me a good service that I need, I want to say I'm going to go get someone else to provide that service to me."

The remark came a day after Romney said he had feared getting a "pink slip" at times during his career.

Both his Democratic and Republican rivals seized on the "pink slip" comment Sunday, poking fun at the multi-millionaire, former businessman.
Romney's speech Monday to the Nashua Chamber of Commerce was peppered with stories about austerity measures the former businessman had brought from the private sector to government during his term as Massachusetts governor.

He described launching his career at Bain Capital, a private equity firm he headed in the 1990s and which invested in starting up Staples, an office-supply chain.

"Because money was dear in a start-up, where everybody's investments and careers were in some respects on the line or some were at least, people were careful with money," he said, telling the audience he helped stock store shelves at night and attended meetings at the company's headquarters "in an old King's department store."

Romney's business history has become a bull's-eye for his GOP rivals and Democrats looking to attack the frontrunner.

At the end of his speech a woman stood up to ask Romney a question, saying the event organizers would not call on her. Speaking without a microphone, the woman said she was a representative for the United Auto Workers and pushed Romney on his opposition to the government bailout of General Motors - a move she said saved the jobs of many auto workers.

Romney responded his suggestion for a managed bankruptcy plan for the struggling auto manufacturer would have resulted in "a strong and vibrant General Motors" without making concessions to unions. He charged President Obama had bowed to unions in the deal, calling it "crony capitalism."

"Under my plan, General Motors would have shed its excess costs. The workers would have had their jobs," Romney said. "I believe the market works better than a president stepping in to take care of his friends."
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Old 01-09-2012, 12:33 PM   #202
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and yet they all do it on both sides. Kerry did it in 2004 and it might have cost him that election,
I'm curious as to what nut jobs you saw Kerry catering to?
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Old 01-09-2012, 02:58 PM   #203
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i agree up until the last statement. and this is why in my laundry list of qualities/positions a candidate should have, economic stuff is much further down on the list than, say, foreign policy and social issues.

would McCain have pushed through the same stimulus that prevented a second Great Depression?

i'm sure he would have been advised to do so.

actually, perhaps maybe he would have. perhaps it would have been even bigger, the $1.5T that was likely needed. because it would have come from a Republican.
He actually was campaigning on a spending freeze during the general election. So his stimulus might not have been too much, although it still probably would have happened because of advisers, like you said. But still I think the economy would have been essentially where it's at today, with lower spending. There has been way too much stimulus, from both the Fed and the Treasury, and at some point you just have to let the economy take it's time. You can't get nine women pregnant and expect a baby in one month.
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Old 01-09-2012, 03:33 PM   #204
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I have a lot of Left friends.

Privately, they all fear Mitt the most, meaning that he is most likely to beat Obama in the general,
I interact w them daily.

They would love for Newt, Perry or Santorum to be a nominee-which would be less of a challenge.

I've never seen such pettiness and jealously on the Right, Newt being the largest example of divisiveness. He's ego surpasses all understanding.

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Old 01-09-2012, 04:05 PM   #205
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Agreed! But here is part of the problem, why would someone bother to work at a fast food restaurant for minimum wage when they could stay home and collect welfare or unemployment compensation, and free healthcare? I understand their plight but there has to be some incentive for them to take that step, and unfortunately, some Americans are too lazy to step out of their own shadow.
Sometimes, yes, but even low-paying jobs, if we raised the wages just a little bit at least so someone could reasonably survive enough to pay for the basics, that'd definitely be a helpful incentive.

I think it'd also help, too, if people didn't automatically dismiss one's lack of college experience as a reason they couldn't get a job. Often people wind up in low-paying jobs because that's all they can find if all they have is a high school degree. But just because they didn't have formal college training doesn't mean they're automatically ill-equipped to do better paying jobs.

I'm honestly curious as to how anyone nowadays can find a way to take advantage of government aid, can scam from it. When my family used it, we had to go through insane amounts of paperwork and red tape and had to prove for sure that everything was completely legit. Maybe it varies from state to state, the paperwork, I dunno. But they sure didn't make it easy for us when we used it.

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Spot on. However, when is someone going to challenge these big corporations who move their tax base overseas to avoid paying taxes in America? That's something which should be looked at from both sides, of course, shouldn't there be a greater incentive for them to "come home" in the form of a lower tax rate?
Definitely agreed on this. This should be a question that should be raised much more often. I think Clinton did something like that, didn't he? He gave companies big and small tax breaks if they actually physically were able to show they were hiring people here at home and actually creating decent jobs. Which, if that's happening, I have no problem with that. If the company's working hard and has solid employment statistics, and they're doing fair, honest business, yeah, give 'em lower taxes (and if they're not doing fair, honest business, they should just be shut down. If I were to commit illegal acts at my job or screw up massively, I'd get fired and/or sent to jail. The same should hold true for big corporations).

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The Ayers comments are relevant to the context of the original post several pages back, where Romney was being questioned by someone in the crowd, and someone else here seemed to mock that line of questioning (how dare they?). This led to my post "Where was this line of questioning in 2008?" regarding Ayers and Obama's general lack of overall experience.
I actually do remember quite a big stink made over the Obama/Ayers thing in 2008. Maybe not as much from left-leaning media, no, but boy, Fox News and other conservative outlets sure did fire up that story. I remember hearing Palin constantly getting on Obama about that, and all I could think is, "You're married to a man who wants Alaska to secede from the U.S., Miss 'I'm Such A Patriotic American', so who are you to talk about connections?"

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While i do agree with you that it shouldn't be a campaign issue in 2012, because personally i don't believe there are any connections between the two other than what's already been stated, I also think that people your age or younger should be aware of the history before they vote and then make their own decision based on facts and not spin from either side.
I do agree young people's history is sorely lacking nowadays. But of all the issues currently out there for young people, even if they know of this history, this isn't the top concern on their list.

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I only say this in interest of full disclosure, because i can already tell you that in the coming months we are going to hear every little detail of Romney's past, every penny he's ever made or spent, every business he has shut down and every person affected by his Bain Capital ventures. Just like we've already heard all of the details of the personal life of Newt Gingrich (vomit) as well as Mack Daddy Cain's purported extramarital affairs and indecent proposals.

And if by some extraordinary turn of events Romney isn't the GOP nominee and one of the wingnuts is (Santorum, for example), prepare to hear about how much he hates gays and how he has a secret God-given agenda to seek and rebuke this "unholy lifestyle".
Fair enough. I agree, if we're going to delve into one politician's past, we should do it with all of them. But I think, too, we should also be more rational in what we decide to pull out from their past. If it has ties to their political views past or present, if it involves their business dealings and the money that funds their campaigns, stuff like that, bring it all out there.

But if a candidate smoked pot when he was in college...eh. Not exactly a bombshell news story. More like a, "No duh, who didn't?" story.

I'm not a Romney supporter, but I'd definitely prefer he be the nominee, because the others are just...insane, for one thing, and I don't want to have to hear them talk and spew nonsense for the next year (and even though I logically know they have nearly no chance of winning, there's always going to be that part of me that worries, "Yeah, but...what if...?").

Second, if Romney is indeed going to be genuine competition against Obama, good. If that means that gets Obama to fight back more and get tougher on the stuff he really wants to do, to prove to people why he deserves a second term, I'm all for that.

(Plus, given how many Republicans are so deadset on anyone BUT Romney, watching them have to try and praise him and support him for the next year while squirming will be sort of a guilty pleasure of mine )

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Old 01-09-2012, 04:30 PM   #206
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I have a lot of Left friends.

I interact w them daily.

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Old 01-09-2012, 04:48 PM   #207
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Privately, they all fear Mitt the most,
Can you read the minds of your right leaning friends as well? What do they privately fear?
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Old 01-09-2012, 04:49 PM   #208
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Posted by
CNN Political Producer Rachel Streitfeld

Nashua, New Hampshire (CNN) – As he offered a lengthy rumination Monday on his experience in the private sector and how it would inform his presidency, Mitt Romney made another comment that will likely provide fodder for his opponents.

"I like being able to fire people who provide services to me," Romney said while answering a question from an audience member about health care.

As he described his approach to overhauling the health care system, the GOP candidate added: "If someone doesn't give me a good service that I need, I want to say I'm going to go get someone else to provide that service to me."
whats wrong with that? If people are worthless maybe they need to be let go so that more deserving people can step in and fill their shoes. Not that i want to see anyone lose their jobs, but i can tell you from my own experience, i see plenty of "abuse" in the system i work in. Its amazing, wasteful, and the abusers know their job is safe because nobody is going to do a damn thing to them.
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Old 01-09-2012, 05:00 PM   #209
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it is just a question of how you see yourself

are you someone that pays people for things?

are you someone that is at risk of being let go by someone who pays unless your job is guaranteed or protected by more than supply and demand

private sector is able to let people go
public sector often times has to keep paying people than many believe should have been let go

I have friends who serve on our Civil Service Board
nobody hardly ever gets let go

We had a policeman in a bar drinking on the clock, kept his job and full benefits
private sector would have let that employee go, on the spot.
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Old 01-09-2012, 05:03 PM   #210
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I'm curious as to what nut jobs you saw Kerry catering to?
John Kerry took the stage at the 2004 Democratic convention with a salute and the phrase "Im John Kerry and I'M reporting for duty" This was an obvious swipe at George Bush who was accused by the Dan Rather's and the Michael Moore's' of being AWOL from the military/ Air National Guard during Vietnam. It was later dis-proven and Dan Rather even lost his job for airing a hack story. Michael Moore had a similar claim on his website which he supposedly offered $10k to anyone who could refute or disprove.

As a footnote, when i left active duty military i went into the National Guard for 15 months. Before my term ended in the guard i was offered a contracting job overseas with the government, so i requested and was granted an early discharge from the Guard. Thing is, they screwed up and kept me on their books, which meant they kept me on their manpower rosters and kept insurance on me, and i was funded on all of their drills and maneuvers. Even though i was out of the country and had the discharge in my hand. Years later i found out that i owed back taxes on the money which i failed to pay for my portion of the insurance, due to the fact that i did not draw any drill pay (because that part of me was separated from them).

Once i had paid them the money that i had supposedly owed to the state (not federal), i hired an attorney to investigate this on my behalf to try and make sure everything was legit. Come to find out, they had no record of me even having served in the guard unit, despite the Honorable Discharge i had and the LES (leave and earning statements) that they had sent me for the time i actually served. Surprised?
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